[17:13] <aseigo> the topic for this meeting is simple: Goals For 4.5, And How We Plan On Taking Over the Frozen Yogurt Market [17:13] <aseigo> and by Frozen Yogurt Market, i mean the f/oss UI space  [17:14] <Chani> okay.. so.. goals for 4.5 [17:15] <Chani> iirc the main themes at tokamak were activities, mobile, and polish [17:16] <Chani> I've got three items up on the feature plan: one's a feature I wanted to try out in 4.4 (and there's a good chance it'll still be up there when 4.6 begins), one's an experiment aaron suggested that I never got around to, and hte other is the activity UI [17:16] <notmart> well, mobile is more a parallel thing to 4.5 [17:16] <Chani> I also wrote some stuff up on that plasma bitchfest list that we never got to  [17:16] <notmart> no way will be ready for 4.5 except as in polishments in sight for mobile-ready things [17:17] <Chani> ahh [17:17] <MoRpHeUz> notmart: exactly....the mobile thing should not be planned for 4.5 IMHO [17:17] <Chani> yeah, I also have some stuff that I don't expect to make it into 4.5, like sessions for activities [17:17] <notmart> so in the end i'll probably end up working a bit less than usual on the actual release stuff being a bit diverted on mobile [17:18] <notmart> but it's ok right now since its importance in the yogurt perspective [17:18] <Chani> in terms of polish, I'm hoping d&d can be improved a bit [17:18] <aseigo> yes, i think that's why it's important/useful to include mobile here [17:18] <aseigo> it will impact our efforts on the rest of the platform for 4.5 [17:19] <MoRpHeUz> aseigo: sorry, I was late hehe  I'm not following you: do you think that it's worth it putting the mobile shell on 4.5 ? [17:19] <fredrikh> Chani: there's a merge request for supporting alpha pixels in the drag pixmaps [17:19] <notmart> as for activities i hope something embrional could be shipping functional [17:19] <notmart> at least a new chooser since zui is gone [17:19] <aseigo> MoRpHeUz: i think we should aim to do a tech preview release at the minimum [17:19] <Chani> fredrikh: I'm thinking more about having plasmoid dragging work at *all*, not how pretty it is [17:19] <notmart> fredrikh: that would be a good start, yes  [17:20] <aseigo> notmart: yes, we have to finish a new UI for activities [17:20] <Chani> notmart: yes, I'm working on that [17:20] <Chani> (sort of) [17:20] <MoRpHeUz> hhmm [17:20] <aseigo> the other major area of work that's needed is Javascript bindings [17:20] <Chani> homework permitting, I'll get bac kto work on hte activity bar next week [17:20] <Bille> Chani: is there a summary of what you and ivan etc designed for the activities anywhere? [17:20] <Chani> Bille: no, sorry, I'll try and do that later today [17:21] <aseigo> i have a ton of work there to do, and getting more people working on that would be great, but i can also probably do it all on my own [17:21] <ivan_cukic> Bille: UI or api? [17:21] <MoRpHeUz> aseigo: tech preview should work. [17:21] <aseigo> MoRpHeUz: yeah, i figured  [17:21] <Bille> ivan_cukic: the high level design informing UI and API [17:21] <wilder> Chani: ivan_cukic: activities imho should really look like tabs in a browser; afterall people are now used to that... [17:21] <Chani> as for d&d... dragging plasmoids around kinda Sucks atm, and it's been a while since I touched that code... I know it worked better than this in the past. I'm hoping it can be made to work actually *well* but I'm not sure how much of it is just plain Hard [17:21] <MoRpHeUz> I would love to do the pastebin->sharebin transition....not sure if I'll have the time. It should be pretty straight forward (it's something like the comic plasmoid already have: scripted plugins) [17:22] <aseigo> wilder: they are going to look a lot more like the widget explorer [17:22] <ivan_cukic> api is in svn (along with the code) - the UI - I don't know It's made a mock [17:22] <ivan_cukic> don't know where it is though [17:22] <aseigo> it-s [17:22] <MoRpHeUz> and definetely as soon as the trunk is frozen, we need to polish things  [17:22] <aseigo> well, i thin we should spend time doing that even before trunk is frozen [17:22] <wilder> MoRpHeUz: i'd start right now indeed [17:22] <Chani> ivan_cukic: where in svn is the api? [17:23] <ivan_cukic> https://[email protected]/home/kde/trunk/playground/base/nepomuk-kde/libactivities [17:23] <Chani> MoRpHeUz: *before* trunk is frozen  [17:23] <aseigo> i spent a day working on extenders yesterday, for instance; they now drop consistently, they don't crash nearly as often (in fact, they don't crash at all here now  ... [17:23] <notmart> for me most of 4.5 work was intended in systray/notification whateveraroundit work, but the gross features are basically done [17:23] <aseigo> a day here, a day there .. it makes a huge difference [17:23] <ivan_cukic> (w/o [email protected] ...  ) [17:23] <Chani> oh, that was said [17:23] <notmart> ah, extenders, i wanted to modify them abit too yes [17:24] <aseigo> my concern for the polishing work is this: it's very hard to coordinate it because it is so broad [17:24] <Chani> ivan_cukic: we need to get that out of playground so that it's actually used and not bitrotting. [17:24] <ivan_cukic> Chani: yes  [17:24] <Chani> and by "we" I mean "you"  [17:24] <aseigo> notmart: i'd like to see the ability to detach them into separate view windows ... it shouldnt' be hard now  [17:24] <aseigo> Chani: ivan_cukic: agreed. [17:24] <aseigo> when can we do that? [17:24] <notmart> aseigo: that would be nice yes [17:24] <aseigo> so ... to summarize quickly: [17:24] <Chani> oh right, that deadlines thing  [17:24] <aseigo> Activities [17:24] <wilder> yeah, so we should really try hard to have a usable plasma in trunk... [17:24] <aseigo> Mobile Shell Tech Preview [17:25] <notmart> aseigo: a thing i would like is to make extendergroups real parents of their group items [17:25] <ivan_cukic> I'll create a thread on the ml for review... [17:25] <aseigo> Javascript (DataEngines, Runners and the plasmodi improvements) [17:25] <notmart> so they can also scroll when there are too many in it [17:25] <wilder> …so that we can test and polish [17:25] <notmart> the utility of the group concept is a bit limited otherwise [17:25] <Chani> ivan_cukic: svn mv it into kdereview immediately then? [17:25] <aseigo> wilder: it's usable in trunk 99% of the time these days [17:25] <notmart> aseigo: and Javascript anims too [17:25] <MoRpHeUz> Chani: yeah, I'm just afraid that we don't have the man power to do all the featuers we plan and polish in a reasonable rate... [17:25] <aseigo> ah, yes, JS anims [17:26] <aseigo> ah, and Plasmate release [17:26] <ivan_cukic> Chani: it has to be in separate parts so I'd like a discussion about it before it goes to kdereview [17:26] <ivan_cukic> kded module, [17:26] <ivan_cukic> nepomuk service [17:26] <aseigo> MoRpHeUz: well, that's why i don't want to see any more than those features beign worked on, tbh  [17:26] <ivan_cukic> classes for kdelibs and kdebase [17:26] <Chani> MoRpHeUz: features? [17:26] <wilder> MoRpHeUz: considered the limited amount of time I'll have in these months I'll be basically polishing for the whole time  [17:26] <aseigo> MoRpHeUz: they are all things we've already started, actually [17:26] <notmart> on a totally unrelated note i was wondering if i should try to start the dataengine caching thing or really try to leave it just for gsoc [17:26] <aseigo> wilder: more krunner work? [17:26] <MoRpHeUz> aseigo: great. (I'm just late and not sure what features you talked before I arrived ) [17:26] <notmart> even if is not really sexy so noone will pick it up [17:27] <aseigo> notmart: dataengine caching? [17:27] <aseigo> notmart: ah, between boots, right [17:27] <wilder> aseigo: yep [17:27] <Chani> ivan_cukic: I'm not sure how that hold up its move *into* kdereview, but okay... [17:27] <wilder> also the device notifier obviously [17:27] <aseigo> notmart: it sounds like a good job for Plasma:torage actually [17:27] <notmart> aseigo: one of the gsoc ideas, making networked plasmoids show sensible data ike old stuff cached when the network is down [17:27] <aseigo> wilder: right .. though device notifier is in a pretty reasonable state [17:27] <aseigo> notmart: yes  [17:28] <alediaferia> notmart: untrue, i find it rather an interesting topic  [17:28] <notmart> aseigo: there is something remotely started about plasma:torage? [17:28] <aseigo> ah, so much polishing to do ... e.g. the exec dataengine ought to become a service... [17:28] <aseigo> notmart: nope. [17:28] <aseigo> notmart: it's my Plasma:ervice for this release  [17:28] <MoRpHeUz> definetely for this release we'll have the "magic number effect". (people relating stability of 3.5 with 4.5). So, as much polished we can deliver plasma on 4.5, the better imo  [17:28] * Chani might be adding features to kwin for 4.5, but won't add any features to plasma beyond what's already on hte feature plan [17:28] * aseigo seems to always have one Boring Infrastructure class to do [17:29] <aseigo> so here's an intresting question: how do we coordinate the polishing? [17:29] <wilder> aseigo: yeah, it's in decent state [17:29] <aseigo> or do we just attack it like an angry mob of ants at a picnic? [17:29] <Chani> good question indeed [17:29] <Chani> hehe  [17:29] <MoRpHeUz> aseigo: hehe, good question [17:29] <aseigo> wilder: ah, krunner, i'd like to see us take another run at paging. [17:29] <fredrikh> i'm thinking of getting rid of the listview popup in folderview, and show the icon view in the popup instead [17:29] <aseigo> wilder: and limiting the # of items created in the GUI at any one time [17:29] <wilder> you mean scolling? [17:29] <aseigo> wilder: we got a bug report the other day from a guy ... amarok return 40,000(!) hits [17:29] <Chani> aseigo: honestly, other than d&d and that panel bug that got under my skin and I just had to keep trying to fix it... well, I find it hard to think of things to polish [17:29] <notmart> aseigo: well we can pick a topic each one, not too big and then figure out when/if one finish his own [17:30] <aseigo> wilder: and so it took a minute or two just to construct all the ResultItems [17:30] <wilder>  [17:30] <MoRpHeUz> I liked notmart's idea [17:30] <wilder> the amark runner is really painful to take care of [17:30] <Chani> should we put polish tasks on hte feature plan? start our own wiki page for the tasks? [17:30] <fredrikh> because it works better with vertical panels, you get the sub folder navigation and it's less code to maintain [17:30] <aseigo> Chani: that's why there is  [17:30] <Chani> bko scares me  [17:30] <aseigo> fredrikh: yeah ... agreed [17:31] <aseigo> fredrikh: there is also that other plasmoid out there that does the list view really nice . quick access, i think it's called? [17:31] <aseigo> fredrikh: so those people who want that will still have a good option [17:31] <fredrikh> yeah [17:31] <MoRpHeUz> Chani: not sure if it's bko or what is inside it ;P [17:31] <aseigo> notmart: ok, sounds good [17:31] <wilder> anyways another point I'd like to be raise is if we should try to move solid notifications to the default notification framework [17:31] <notmart> fredrikh: yes, i would always have loved the gridview in popups and is ton less code  [17:31] <aseigo> what i'd like is a workflow we can follow so we know who is working on what and we can post regular "i just won!" updates [17:32] <notmart> as polishment goes, /me of course will pick systray/notificaiotns, maybe extenders and the usual netbookish stuff [17:32] <wilder> atm we have three different ways of saying that the unmount failed and stuff like that [17:32] <aseigo> i think it would be awesome if we could post a topic to the mailing list and brainstorm around the topic in terms of polishing [17:32] <aseigo> and then use that as a target list [17:32] <Chani> aseigo: will people update a wiki? [17:32] <aseigo> a wiki is a good place to record, it's not a good place to discuss [17:32] <notmart> aseigo: yes, a thread for topic in the mailinglist would be fine [17:32] <Chani> wiki lists aren't pretty, but they're easier to maintain than a mailing list [17:33] <notmart> put that on the wiki don't know risk to rot as usual  [17:33] <aseigo> we'll just have to be ++careful to kill any bikesheds that start [17:33] <Chani> mmkay. [17:33] <fredrikh> Chani: as long as we don't use a wiki table  [17:33] <aseigo> Chani: yes, for recording they are perfect [17:33] <aseigo> fredrikh: lol .. yes [17:33] <notmart> aseigo: no risk i thnk at this point everyone agrees that the bikeshed will be pink  [17:33] <aseigo> wilder: good point on the device notfications .. [17:33] <Chani> so a mailing list thread to discuss, and a wiki to record what we've done? [17:33] <aseigo> wilder: i'd like to see them say with the device notifier though if at all possible [17:34] <Chani> or should we skip the wiki because we''ll all forget to update it anyways? ;P [17:34] <aseigo> Chani: i like the idea, yes [17:34] <aseigo> wilder: as for the krunner scrolling .. i'm wondering if we should just show (and create!) the number of ui items that actually will fit in the visible space [17:34] <aseigo> wilder: this puts a nice cap on the UI overhead ... [17:35] <wilder> aseigo: dolphin uses its own status bar; the notifier uses a window; the runner uses a kdialog :/ [17:35] <aseigo> wilder: and then use actual paging to go through the rest. watching people use krunner, it's not overly common to go past the first page of hits (sort of like google there) [17:35] <notmart> well, Chani idea ++, we can be optimistic and say we'll update the wiki [17:35] <notmart> then if we won't but the work will be done anyways, oh no baddie [17:35] <aseigo> wilder: yes, that sucks .. *thinks* [17:35] <wilder> aseigo: what if the notifier has been removed? [17:36] <aseigo> wilder: it's too bad we can tag notifications with some semantics and then route them in plasma-desktop accordingly [17:36] <wilder> (doesn't make sense actually, but hell) [17:36] <aseigo> wilder: because then we could show those notifications with the device notifier if it exists, and in the general area if it doesn't [17:36] <aseigo> wilder: but that would mean deeper work on knotifications [17:37] <wilder> aseigo: yep :/ [17:37] <wilder> aseigo: there's some tiny work needed also on the solid side of it [17:37] <wilder> but I'll take care of that [17:38] <Chani> Projects/Plasma/ was deleted? o.0 [17:38] <notmart> wth? [17:38] <wilder> moreover about krunner, I think we should also focus on providing decent search results [17:38] <wilder> e.g. Chani once complained that "mar" returned "amarok" before "marble" [17:38] <notmart> hm, it seems to still exist [17:38] <Chani> oh, it got moved [17:39] <Chani> haha, we still have an "open tasks list" [17:39] <wilder> sry, I've in mind a way to take care of that and to make the "promote queries which have already been run" a bit smarter [17:41] <wilder> then aseigo, there's the quicksand problem... [17:42] <notmart> pretty much unmantained right? [17:42] <wilder> the code is largely unmantained and it would need some time to take it on quality par with the default interface [17:42] * MoRpHeUz packing (again) [17:42] <wilder> animations are terrible and their code is even worse [17:43] <wilder> so, in term of "polish", we should either have it working or just drop it imho [17:44] <MoRpHeUz> wilder: +1 [17:44] * notmart wouldn't mind killing bits, we accepted features too lightly without a real commitment of mantaining them after they got in [17:45] * Chani wonders if anyone will ever make a welcome plasmoid [17:46] <Chani> quicksand? [17:46] <wilder> Chani: the "other" krunner interface [17:46] <notmart> a welcome plasmoid.. ahah, not hoping anymore [17:46] <notmart> what about now doing a little roundup of "what i want to work on 4.6"? [17:46] <Chani> oh [17:47] <Chani> 4.6... shiny shiny activity/context stuff  [17:47] <wilder> basically we have at least a bug report opened by each quicksand user  [17:47] <Chani> :/ I really need to sort out the internship thing asap though. [17:47] <ivan_cukic> 4.6... the greesy activity/context stuff [17:47] <ivan_cukic>  [17:47] <Chani> 'cause if internship don't work out there's always the last-minute gsoc application... [17:47] <MoRpHeUz> wilder: yep, definitely moving it back to playground (remove as an official feature) or fixing of the two should happen for 4.5.... [17:48] <wilder> then I've a dream for the notifier... [17:48] <Chani> ivan_cukic: greasy? o.0 [17:48] <MoRpHeUz> 4.6 ? mobile++  [17:48] <wilder> enabling drag and drop for devices to the desktop [17:48] * notmart as usual bugfixing the netbook stuff, systray, notifications and extenders [17:48] <Chani> yes, 4.6 will belong to mobile  ...and all those gsoc projects [17:48] <wilder> but that's for 4.6 [17:48] <notmart> 4.6 mobile [17:48] <MoRpHeUz> and if I can't make the pastebin->sharebin for 4.5, then 4.6 at most [17:48] <ivan_cukic> Chani: yes, greasy - you're doing the shiny things, and I'm doinng the under-the-hood-geary-greasy-stuff  [17:48] <Chani> ivan_cukic: ahh  [17:49] <MoRpHeUz> ivan_cukic: lol [17:49] <aseigo> wilder: i'm not too concerned about it [17:49] <aseigo> wilder: (quicksand, that is) [17:49] * notmart pictures a cheesy fast and furious scene with ivan_cukic tuning the car.. [17:49] <aseigo> wilder: it's a nice excuse for someone to get up and start working on krunner [17:50] <aseigo> wilder: in the meantime, it's not the default .. [17:50] <wilder> yep [17:50] <wilder> I sort of feel bad to ignore all those brs, though :/ [17:50] <wilder> I fixed a few crashes, but I'm not willing to go any deeper [17:50] <fredrikh> one polish item that needs to be fixed is that when you toggle compositing the margins in all toplevel plasma windows are screwed up afterwards [17:50] <aseigo> wilder: are they all lumped under qs? [17:51] <fredrikh> except the panel for some reason [17:51] <notmart> fredrikh: ah, yes i always have to look into that one [17:51] <wilder> aseigo: the ones I took care about (i.e. before 4.4.0 release) yes [17:51] <notmart> i'll take i suppose [17:51] <wilder> s/about/of/ [17:51] <aseigo> wilder: as long as they are all collected under "qucksand" on, it's ok then  [17:51] <wilder> yeah /me filters them out too [17:51] <wilder>  [17:52] <wilder> actually it seems that krunner biggest foe is stuff not being thread-safe [17:52] <wilder> notably dbus [17:52] <fredrikh> wilder: its biggest foe is the kpixmapcache bug in my experience  [17:53] <wilder> fredrikh: which one? [17:53] <notmart> but srsly, is there anybody mantaning kpixmapcache at the moment? [17:53] <wilder> there was one in 4.3 which was pretty dumb [17:54] <fredrikh> each time you change the color scheme, plasma theme, wallpaper, toggle compositing, enable/disable a desktop effect, etc. there's a 30-50% chance that something that links to libplasma is going to crash [17:54] <wilder> :/ [17:54] <fredrikh> and that includes plasma itself, krunner, kwin, ksmserver, certain kcms's.... [17:54] <wilder> I see, never experienced that actually, [17:55] <wilder> the borders yes [17:55] <notmart> fredrikh: is very rare for me so didn't experienced much, are you sure is deep in kpixmapcache and not something upper level into plasma? [17:55] <wilder> (I also thought I fixed it at some point, but I was clearly wrong  ) [17:55] <fredrikh> notmart: yes [17:55] <notmart> oki [17:55] <aseigo> wilder: dbus is "fixed" upstream [17:55] <wilder> aseigo: really? [17:55] <aseigo> wilder: we need to be ++careful with kio usage in krunner though [17:55] <wilder> since when? [17:55] <fredrikh> notmart: i see it a lot, because i work on kwin so i restart it about 100 times / day [17:55] <aseigo> since quite a while; thiago did a lot of work on it [17:55] <wilder> and upstream means qt or dbus itself [17:55] <aseigo> both [17:56] <wilder> weird.. I'm the reporter of that task [17:56] <wilder> and I didn't get any news [17:56] <wilder> admittedly I've not been on irc that often after 4.4.0, but… [17:56] <fredrikh> notmart: testing desktop effect settings is something i avoid doing, because usually i find myself starting at the kdm login prompt after doing that [17:56] <aseigo> ask thiago about it ... last i talked with him about it (sometime during the 4.4 cycle), he said he nailed down all the remaining threading issues that had been found/reported [17:57] <notmart> about funny stuffs, we still have the big bug of randomly freezing event loops, that they marked as needsinfo, while i gave all the info i could conceive  [17:57] <aseigo> but yeah, thread safety. kdelibs is generally not :/ [17:57] <Chani> ta-daa! [17:57] <wilder> aseigo: I'll see if there are news on that specific issue [17:57] <Bille> aseigo: that's not strictly true, there was another threading problem found a couple of weeks ago in libdbus [17:57] <Chani> so... where is the meeting at now? [17:57] <aseigo> notmart: push on darktears, thiago for it [17:57] <notmart> aseigo: ok  [17:57] <aseigo> Bille: fun... [17:57] <aseigo> Chani: i think we actually have our conclusions ... [17:57] <Chani> yay  [17:58] <wilder> btw, imvho, polishing also means try to improve general performance and responsiveness [17:58] <Bille> that was the one that required the workaround in akonadi that failed and caused akonadi to exhaust the maximum allowable number of connections to the bus. [17:58] <aseigo> final question for conclusion then we can go on chatting about stuff  [17:58] <aseigo> what are our first polishing targets / topics? [17:58] <aseigo> Bille: aah, that one, right... [17:58] <wilder> so it would be nice to spend some time on some serious valgrinding [17:58] <aseigo> wilder: yes [17:58] * Chani still needs to backport than panel thing [17:59] <aseigo> wilder: again, picking specific components to target for that would be ++good imho [17:59] <aseigo> backports. feh.  [17:59] <Chani> first targets? hmm... [17:59] <wilder> like not freezing plasma for a good minute when you plug in an HDD with 10 partitions :/ [17:59] * Chani isn't sure where to start with d&d. would probably like to discuss it a bit at some point. [18:00] <Chani> but I also have my feature to work on. [18:01] * Chani looks at the beautiful blue sky outside the window [18:02] <notmart> Chani: it's fake, don't believe it! [18:02] <Chani> come on - first targets, then we can go play outside  [18:03] <Chani> systray/notifications? is there any other panel polish to be done? the dashboard? [18:04] <Chani> applet handles, they're behaving well these days right? [18:04] <wilder> Chani: erm... [18:04] <notmart> well, big panel polish is drop in and out  [18:04] <wilder> I locked my widgets not to have to fight with them again [18:04] <notmart> Chani: applet handles are quite ok-ish now [18:04] * aseigo picks on extenders then. [18:04] <aseigo> and then i should probably focus some time on remote widgets [18:05] <aseigo> yes, it's the "fix up after rob" parade [18:05] <Chani> notmart: d&d, yes [18:05] <Chani> d&d kinda overlaps with panels and dashboard [18:05] <Chani> oh, remote widgets [18:05] <Chani> forgot about that :/ [18:05] <MoRpHeUz> aseigo: lol [18:05] <notmart> esktop toolbo: sometimes text still disappears, will be a quick fix probably [18:05] <aseigo> applet handles -> d'n'd. [18:05] <notmart> remote widgets.. [18:05] <Chani> I can never get them to work [18:05] <notmart> they basically works [18:05] <MoRpHeUz> remote widgets are a "must work" for mobile show off  [18:05] <aseigo> right now applet handles work a bit differently for d'n'd than does dragging on the rest of an aplet [18:06] <notmart> but everything is still limited and to be finisged.. [18:06] <Chani> oh... and the widget explorer :/ [18:06] <wilder> I'll focus on some krunner_under_the_hood stuff (+ device notifier stuff of course) [18:06] <aseigo> MoRpHeUz: yes.. and we need to expand the protocols supported as well as the announcement mechanisms. [18:06] <aseigo> Chani: yes, widget explorer is another good polishing target [18:06] <notmart> big thing missing is probably migrating the configuration values of an exported widget [18:06] <aseigo> wilder: cool  [18:06] <MoRpHeUz> aseigo: yep...I have no clue how it works besides that it uses Jolie and QCA [18:06] <aseigo> notmart: for which? remotes? [18:06] <Chani> aseigo may have tricked me into paying attention to the poor widget explorer. I don't think I can stand to factor out that icon-list code without doing some cleanup [18:06] <notmart> browsing i remote widgets in the widget explorer... [18:06] <notmart> aseigo: yes [18:07] <aseigo> Chani: these are not the icon lists you are looking for.  [18:07] <notmart> and the kio browser of remote widgets is simply broken... [18:07] <aseigo> notmart: yes, but that isn't hard  [18:07] <aseigo> kio browser? [18:08] <notmart> aseigo: yep, in the remote:/ kio protocol it can list remote widgets [18:08] <notmart> list, but then those items are useless [18:08] <Chani> aseigo: I'd suggest not tackling that until I've had time to finish factoring out the code, though. there was a bunchofstuff in my head for that, and it'll take time to swap it back in and untangle everything, so it's something I'll probably have to dedicate a full day to (when I can find one) [18:08] <notmart> you can't for instance drag ne on the desktop [18:08] <notmart> tried to fix once but ran away screaming [18:08] <Chani> (and I mean dedicate a full day to *understanding*, not necessarily producing anyhting  ) [18:12] <Chani> okay, so we have some topics, I think that means the meetiong's over 

This page was last edited on 6 March 2010, at 18:45. Content is available under Creative Commons License SA 4.0 unless otherwise noted.