Projects/Usability/Meetings/2009May14

IRC Log (Times UTC+12)

07:58:10< seele> hello everyone

08:01:34< seele> http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/Meetings

08:01:38< seele> let's get this party started

08:01:48< seele> can someone volunteer to hold the logs and post them to the website later?

08:02:26 * seele pokes #kde-usability

08:03:32< pinheiro> not me anything that as to do with text per si is out of my skill levls

08:04:01< seele> hmm.. pretty quiet in here..

08:04:06< serenity> can i join your meeting?

08:04:09< seele> who is here for the kde usability meeting?

08:04:23< seele> serenity: yes, please look at http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/Meetings

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08:05:32< seele> so there are a number of items listed on the meetings page. is anyone here who posted one of those items and would like to talk about them?

08:05:48 * ivan_cukic is a bit late, but is now here

08:06:24< seele> hmm.. let's give it another 10 minutes for people to trickle in

08:06:32< Flyser> I posted one of them. It's the last one, so I don't know if you want to start with this one =)

08:07:10< seele> Flyser: ok, we can start with that one in a few minutes. let's give people some time to come in

08:07:19< Flyser> okay

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08:07:54-!- fredrikh [n=fredrik@kde/fredrik] has joined #kde-usability

08:07:57< Flyser> just highlight me then, I have to multitask a lot at the moment ;-)

08:08:37< notmart> here :D

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08:09:23< seele> some more people trickling in. we'll give it 5 more minutes before starting

08:09:39< seele> for those of us joining, there are some topics on the meeting page: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/Meetings

08:09:47< seele> we'll do a few of those, and then we can take some questions

08:10:23-!- ScottK [n=quassel@ubuntu/member/scottk] has joined #kde-usability

08:11:34 * agateau is here for the meeting

08:11:41< seele> hi ScottK we're waiting a few more minutes for people to show up

08:11:55< seele> ScottK: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/Meetings for the meeting topic list, or we will talk about new things people ask about

08:12:27< ScottK> Thanks.

08:12:34< Half-Left> seele: I actually did a proper Qt mockup of Desktop Settings, so maybe I should offer some feedback :)

08:12:49< seele> slougi: you here?

08:12:56< ivan_cukic> Half-Left: screenshot?

08:13:12< seele> Half-Left: sure, however let's wait to talk about it

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08:13:40< Half-Left> ivan_cukic: I'll present it when we get started

08:13:48< ivan_cukic> Half-Left: cool

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08:15:04< seele> ok. so let's update on some past items. most of the people who were assigned things to do don't seem to be here though

08:15:18< seele> oh, i should also ask for a volunteer to post the meeting logs too

08:15:45< seele> agateau: have you looked into the toolbar issue anymore?

08:16:14< agateau> seele: no, i've been busy with kde4.3

08:16:17< agateau> :/

08:16:19< seele> and slougi, NSailBot, and sreich don't seem to be here

08:16:24< seele> agateau: that's ok, just checking up on you :)

08:16:34< seele> i have two things on my todo list i havent gotten done either :(

08:16:42< agateau> seele: did you have a look at my mockup?

08:16:53< seele> agateau: i did, i thought i gave you feedback, but maybe i should look at it again

08:16:59< seele> can you resend it via mail?

08:17:05< agateau> seele: sure

08:17:20< seele> ok great

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08:17:27< seele> so past items are done, let's look at our list

08:17:35< seele> http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/Meetings

08:17:40< seele> Flyser: ping

08:17:48< Half-Left> annma just left :/

08:17:57< seele> Flyser: you wanted to talk about progress indicators in taskbar icons?

08:18:09< Flyser> uhm, more or less^^

08:18:22< seele> can you describe the problem and give some examples?

08:18:23< Flyser> Actually my question on the meeting list is not up to date. I added it while rewriting KGets tray code, because I had some discussion with the KGet developers about the design of their old tray icon (see http://lists.kde.org/?l=kget&m=124052014427746&w=2)

08:18:27< pinheiro> dis some one said icons ???

08:18:30< pinheiro> :P

08:19:09< Flyser> Thanks to KNotificationItem I don't have to bother anymore, but the plasma devs have ;-) So I think it's still important

08:19:12< seele> pinheiro: this sounds like your sort of thing :)

08:19:24< agateau> seele: mail sent

08:19:26< notmart> Flyser: now the progress feature has been postponed in the systray to 4.4, but i want to add it

08:19:31< seele> so the question is how to indicate a particular status for kget, correct?

08:19:42< pinheiro> is ist a icon for a system tray couse system trays are notmart departmant :P

08:19:58 * seele lets notmart and pinheiro take over :)

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08:20:16< Flyser> notmart: Yeah, I was thinking about the layout

08:20:50< Flyser> And also about overlays (how big, where) and the stuff akregator and kmail does to show unread messages

08:21:07< notmart> Flyser: i was thinking about progressive coloring amarok style in systray, and display a real progress bar in the taskbar

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08:21:33< serenity> i like the idea of a piechart to indicate progress

08:21:38< Flyser> seele: Actually not anymore as this job is done by plasma now ... so it's system-wide

08:21:52< pinheiro> notmart: ????

08:22:02< notmart> well, it's not "dome" it -can- be done :p

08:22:04< seele> so i guess it is more of a discussion between pinheiro and notmart then

08:22:14< pinheiro> yeah :P

08:22:18< Flyser> serenity: me too, but it might cause problems on non-circular icons

08:22:21< pinheiro> theming stuf :P

08:23:10 * notmart kinda feels talking about the new systray in one of those meetings could be useful, i still don't know very much about exactly what :p

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08:23:55< pinheiro> think we need to talk notmart in plasma a bit redone the meting we had

08:23:55< Flyser> notmart: Hum, I don't think a progressbar is the right thing for amarok, but would be for kget ..

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08:24:44< notmart> Flyser: well, amarok has one in its main toolbar no?

08:24:45< kdepepo> did ben cooksley contact you about the kept icon selection in the new system settings?

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08:24:59< notmart> kdepepo: no?

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08:25:11< serenity> re

08:25:47< kdepepo> okey, he said he would wait for an answer from usability team

08:26:08< Flyser> notmart: yeah but it's not really a "progress bar". It's not like the user would want to wait till its finished.

08:26:48< seele> is the point to see how far individual progress items are, or all progress items together?

08:27:14< seele> because you can't see individual progress just by looking at an icon, that would be too much information

08:27:31< seele> you could only do overal progress of all items, then mouse over or click the icon to get all of the individual progresses

08:27:36< Flyser> all together I think.

08:28:00< notmart> well i think the api will support a single value for progress

08:28:04< seele> so since it is all the progresses, maybe there is a way to dress the icon using color, or filling a container like the battery icon

08:28:23< notmart> and then is the app task to decide what rapresents?

08:28:52< fredrikh> you have the spinner widget now that shows activity... but not progress

08:29:07< agateau> About piechart progress indicator: to avoid theming problems, it could be displayed as a second icon next to the app icon (kind of the "unsaved changes" icon back in kde3 days)

08:29:19< seele> yes, but within guidelines so that different applications dont use the same graphic in different ways. that would be confusing

08:29:28< seele> pinheiro: any ideas on how to show overall progress in an icon?

08:29:36< pinheiro> yesah dont

08:29:38< pinheiro> yeah

08:29:40< pinheiro> :)

08:29:56< pinheiro> dont like the concept makes alot of problems

08:29:58 * notmart is for progressive coloring like amarok

08:30:20< notmart> make the icon 10% alpha and progressive portion of full alpha

08:30:44< ivan_cukic> is there really a point of having multiple, completely diverse elements in one progress?

08:31:01< pinheiro> the space for difrent steps in regular 24x24 icons is a bout 10 difrent stages

08:31:01< notmart> nono, just one plz

08:31:05< pinheiro> so 10% increments

08:31:08< notmart> otherwise the info becomes useless

08:31:29< Flyser> notmart: from left to right, top to bottom, a pie chart or sth. completely different?

08:31:31< notmart> yeah, but it doesn't have to be precise

08:31:53< notmart> Flyser: bottom to top?

08:31:53 * agateau likes the download progress from Google Chrome

08:31:56< agateau> http://media.photobucket.com/image/chrome download progress/forevermzcm/downloadwindow.jpg

08:32:02< notmart> like it's a bottle that is gettning full?

08:32:32< Flyser> notmart: Personally I don't like that. I never know if its bottom to top or top to bottom in amarok.

08:32:36< agateau> http://media.photobucket.com/image/chrome%20download%20progress/forevermzcm/downloadwindow.jpg <- should work better

08:32:43< notmart> agateau: maybe not really visible behind really tiny icons?

08:33:11< agateau> notmart: no, that's why i was suggesting to show it as a second icon

08:33:13< pinheiro> in tiny icons dont expact much

08:33:16< pinheiro> expect

08:33:24< serenity> then put it on top of the edige of the icon

08:33:34< serenity> *edge

08:33:47< notmart> agateau: but when it's in the systray showing 2 icons is nasty

08:33:49< pinheiro> what is the issue i was a bit of sorry ?

08:33:57< agateau> notmart: true

08:34:12< agateau> but I thought this was about progress in taskbar?

08:34:19< seele> pinheiro: can color be used to indicate progress? red ( < 25%) yello (~50%) green (> 75%) etc?

08:34:20 * agateau feels OT

08:34:30< pinheiro> seele bad idea

08:34:44< seele> agateau: if progress can be indicated by an icon in a task tray

08:34:47< pinheiro> couse usualy dosent work for alot of people

08:34:52< seele> pinheiro: ok.

08:34:53< notmart> agateau: also. the idea is to display info arriving from the systray also in the taskbar

08:34:54< pinheiro> alpha is beter

08:34:58< ScottK> seele: Don't make stuff red unless my computer is about to catch on fire.

08:35:00< seele> so it would have to be "filling up" a container somehow?

08:35:12< pinheiro> yeah and colors have meening

08:35:26< pinheiro> so its would be confusing

08:35:43< pinheiro> in the batery its truns red in last satge to show yeat another step

08:35:56< pinheiro> stage

08:36:18< notmart> battery red makes sense because it's a kinda serious warning

08:36:20< pinheiro> but the red has meenning there are a warning color

08:36:34< pinheiro> yeah you beter go and charge it

08:37:03< pinheiro> so color is not a good fits all solution

08:37:45< pinheiro> depending waht the metafore is we can try difrent objects and diferent animations

08:38:28< pinheiro> what do we want to say?

08:38:43< agateau> i'd rather have a single animated "working icon", which would expand to a window/plasma popup looking like firefox download window

08:38:50< seele> are we trying to make this apply to a single application or to all applications?

08:38:52 * notmart says make some experiments when trunk will unfreeze :)

08:38:59< seele> and is this "progress" for anything, or "download progress"?

08:39:21< Flyser> agateau: again this does not really work for amarok.

08:39:23< pinheiro> yeah seele thats the question

08:39:40< notmart> seele: for anything, download progress is the job view that is another thing

08:39:52< agateau> Flyser: in the case of amarok it's about progress in playing the current track|playlist?

08:39:54< seele> agateau also brings up a point that maybe sometimes you just want to see that something is currently downloading, or complete, but you don't necessarily need to know "how far" at a glance

08:40:05< Flyser> agateau: yes, current track

08:40:07< pinheiro> so notmart i would go with a generik movmnt icon like the i one

08:40:07< notmart> agateau: yeah that is basically what we have now, and is another thing

08:40:15< seele> if you want to know how far, you probably care about other details such as time to complete, and to get that you could use a tooltip or popup

08:40:27< pinheiro> that you clik for more info

08:40:54< agateau> notmart: yes, but it agregate notifications and progress, which is weird imo

08:40:59< seele> would it use the swirling circle thing like is used for the network manager?

08:41:10< notmart> this "progress" must remainsomething really really generic, not precise and just a quick glimpse

08:41:24< agateau> Flyser: progress in playback is a completely different topic, why would one want to track this waiting for it to finish?

08:41:29< notmart> anything more important should be expressed by the transfer jobs

08:41:50< Flyser> agateau: thats exactly what I am saying ;-)

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08:42:29< agateau> Flyser: ok, amarok is not relevant to this discussion :)

08:42:52< Flyser> Maybe I am thinking slightly too implementation specific ... I tend to think "How would I implement it with KNotificationItem" ;-)

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08:43:46 * notmart feels discussion is derailing on jobs progress...

08:44:05< Flyser> agateau: why not? Someday it will want to/have to use the new systray protocol ...

08:44:16< pinheiro> the proposed feature was: give systray icons some way to show a single progress??? if so this is a simple icon overlay

08:44:24< pinheiro> i can do that in the thme

08:44:30< pinheiro> theme

08:44:31< notmart> yes, nothing more, nothing less :)

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08:45:06< agateau> Flyser: because it does not really feel like a "progress" imo

08:45:10< pinheiro> a icon overlay is consistent with what we do in all of kde

08:45:11< notmart> it really makes more sense in an audio player than tracking transfer of files, not its job :)

08:46:03< seele> ok, so i see a lot of ideas bouncing around. are there specifically any icon proposals?

08:46:21< pinheiro> seele: now that i know what the proposal is i have

08:46:22< Flyser> pinheiro: do you mean "icon overlay" in the sense of either something is going on and the icon is shown or nothing is going on and the icon is not shown?

08:46:25< seele> i see icon overlay, use of alpha transparency, progress animation..

08:46:49< pinheiro> seele ist kite simple

08:46:55< seele> ok, is everyone comfortable with pinheiro mocking up some icon ideas and then we can revisit this topic later?

08:46:57< notmart> i see it as an overlay to the systray (or taskbar) icon

08:47:05< pinheiro> its a tiny icons on the side of the main icon that shows progress

08:47:20< seele> and probably it is up to pinheiro and notmart

08:47:20< pinheiro> we do overlays for alot of stuf

08:47:27< agateau> seele: fine with me

08:47:30< Flyser> I see

08:47:37 * notmart suggests to move on since it's 4.4 material anyways and perhaps there are more urgent things tonight?

08:47:49< pinheiro> cool

08:47:51 * ivan_cukic has to go :( cheerio!

08:47:54< Flyser> agreed^^

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08:48:00< seele> notmart: urgent? not sure.. but there are more topics probably

08:48:01< notmart> and maybe returning on it when we will have some experiments committed, so after freeze?

08:48:08< seele> ok. so next topic

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08:48:19< seele> does anyone have anything from the meeting list they added or would like to discuss?

08:48:26< seele> sometimes people add things but forget to come to meetings

08:48:44< pinheiro> thre was one there about menu icons?

08:49:10< pinheiro> but the screnshotts look like gnome

08:49:13< seele> that was from a few meetings ago. NSailBot was supposed to mock up his ideas and present, but he is not here

08:49:45< seele> pinheiro: oh, do you mean the second item? that looks like something different

08:49:46< pinheiro> k

08:49:53< pinheiro> yes second item

08:49:56< seele> but the person who added it isn't here

08:50:13< seele> ok, if there isn't anything from the list people want to talk about, does anyone have any questions?

08:50:21< seele> i think Half-Left had a mockup he wanted to review, correct?

08:50:31< Half-Left> Yep

08:50:44< Half-Left> http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php/Appearance+Settings+UI+Mockup?content=104127

08:51:07< Half-Left> A few points to note

08:51:36< Half-Left> It doesn't take into consideration 4.3 changes

08:52:06< daskreech> Did we talk about System settings?

08:52:17< pinheiro> heeeeee maybe a normal file view mode would be beter

08:52:37< Half-Left> The plasma theme part is best I can do considering the current previews

08:52:46< agateau> I love the idea of getting rid of the combobox for wallpapers and themes

08:52:50< pinheiro> thre is alot of boxes inside boxes there

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08:52:55< agateau> it's really painful to use

08:52:55< Flyser> Thats the "right click on desktop"->Settings GUI, right?

08:53:07< Half-Left> Yep

08:53:39< Flyser> Half-Left: I love you :P I really hate the combobox-hell

08:53:54 * notmart kinda feels that plasma theme settings could be moved elsewhere, dunno what the where is tough :)

08:54:03< Half-Left> Flyser: Thats why I did it :)

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08:54:21< DebianUT> Half-Left:http://www.kde-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=2&id=104127&file1=104127-1.jpg&file2=104127-2.jpg&file3=&name=Appearance+Settings+UI+Mockup <-- No apply button?

08:54:35< Half-Left> The wallpaper previews can be scale like Dolphin thumbnails can

08:54:52< agateau> notmart: in a third tab?

08:54:56< Half-Left> DebianUT: Nope, clicking the preview applies the wallpaper

08:55:02< Flyser> What about a live preview of the wallpaper+positioning?

08:55:06< pinheiro> Half-Left: can i ask you how come you need the boxes around the wallpaers

08:55:30< pinheiro> well not sure how wone would code that with qt style heven

08:55:30 * notmart would really love exactly zero tab

08:55:36< Half-Left> pinheiro: I'm just beginning with Qt Creator, thats why :)

08:55:55< seele> it looks nice, but i'm a little waring of adding tabs to do it though

08:56:03< pinheiro> yeah think the tab is not the best idea

08:56:06< agateau> notmart: thinking about it more, a 3rd tab is not a good idea

08:56:24< pinheiro> not sure slecting a theme is less imporatat than chaging a wallpaper

08:56:33< agateau> in current trunk there is a single icon now on the left of the dialog

08:56:37< agateau> could use two

08:57:06< Half-Left> Not that when changing tabs the 'Get new' buttons sync

08:57:18< Half-Left> i.e they don't move places

08:57:25< Half-Left> note*

08:57:28< agateau> http://imagebin.ca/view/dQYgig2.html

08:57:49< DebianUT> Half-Left:"Get more themes" should be better than "Get new theme"

08:58:36< Half-Left> Yer, the wording is just off the top of my head so yer I can be anything

08:58:39 * agateau thinks we need a get-hot-new-stuff icon for all the "Get new xxx" buttons

08:58:55< seele> and consistent labelling for using get hot new stuff

08:59:18< seele> sometimes it's Get [object] or Get more [objects] or Get new [objects]

08:59:23< daskreech> I don't know GHNS is a strange beast

08:59:34< agateau> Half-Left: the ok|cancel buttons should be outside the tabs i think

08:59:43< agateau> seele: +1

08:59:53< pinheiro> agateau: you meena difrent one for every kind of stuf in ghns

09:00:16< agateau> pinheiro: no, i mean a generic ghns icon, so that the user get to know it will go to ghns

09:00:20< seele> pinheiro: no, i think he means just a single icon to brand the functionality

09:00:20< notmart> or maybe a single icon, that works also a logo

09:00:28< Half-Left> agateau: They are at the bottom, how do you mean?

09:00:29< agateau> yes

09:00:30< daskreech> Does the funcationality need to be branded?

09:00:37< pinheiro> dont we have one

09:00:46< pinheiro> ista star :P

09:00:48< daskreech> What other type of functionality has been branded?

09:01:14< seele> daskreech: Places could be considered a "brand"

09:01:27< pinheiro> its all from the internets right?

09:01:27< daskreech> It has an Icon?

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09:01:33< daskreech> I've not noticed

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09:01:36< seele> daskreech: no, but it has a consistent look and feel

09:01:38< pinheiro> think i have one idea

09:01:41 * daskreech hi fives jpwhiting

09:01:46< seele> daskreech: infact, i think it has it's own class

09:01:50< jpwhiting> heya daskreech

09:01:51< pinheiro> frank can say thanks to me later :D

09:02:03< seele> pinheiro: yes, it is all from internet services

09:02:08< agateau> Half-Left: I mean, in kde dialogs with tabs, dialog buttons are usually in a separate box, outside tabs

09:02:11< seele> ok, so before we get on to ghns

09:02:18< seele> what are we saying about Half-Left's dialog?

09:02:26< daskreech> Well I think because GHNS has a name we think it deserves a further identity

09:02:28< seele> it's nice, but i'm not comfortable with the use fo tabs

09:02:29 * Chani has a mockup that's scary and needs help. but I should eat first.

09:02:29< pinheiro> yeah a globe inside a star shaped bad coming up

09:02:33< Half-Left> You notice the zooming function as well, it's like Dolphin's preview zoomer

09:02:53 * notmart wonders how that dialog would work with different wallpapers plugins

09:02:59< daskreech> I don't mind the naming being consistent but having an application be required to brand it seems strange I think

09:03:11< Half-Left> agateau: Not sure, thats liek the current one, ok, cancle ect..

09:03:16< daskreech> jpwhiting: Apps can implement their own GHNS dialog?

09:03:21< Half-Left> cancel*

09:03:25< seele> daskreech: there is nothing strange about using a consistent icon for the same functionality over and over again

09:03:27< Flyser> Half-Left: Can you add a preview similar to this one: http://g.imagehost.org/0297/preview.png

09:03:29< jpwhiting> daskreech: hmm?

09:03:31< notmart> and: that dialog is kinda different from the dialogs higs, hmm

09:03:33< jpwhiting> they can set the icon

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09:03:37< jpwhiting> and the title I think

09:03:40< seele> daskreech: it's like using the same icon and label for all file browse buttons

09:03:40< pinheiro> cna some one fill a request for that icon GHNS in http://tinyurl.com/33qfzs ?

09:04:07< seele> pinheiro: i will do it right now

09:04:09< agateau> Half-Left: like this: http://imagebin.ca/view/9Sri_8.html

09:04:09< daskreech> seele: so they would either have Get <word> <Item> or the one icon ?

09:04:15< pinheiro> thanks seele

09:04:31< jpwhiting> daskreech: what do you mean by implement their own?

09:04:34< Half-Left> Flyser: Why would you have that in my mockup?, It shows previews already :p

09:04:56< daskreech> jpwhiting: not sure yet :) I know that I had this written down before my hard drive died

09:05:09< Half-Left> agateau: Oh, you'll have to beare with me, I'm not upto par with KDE HIG

09:05:10< notmart> Half-Left: that view works only for "image" wallpaper plugin tough

09:05:23< notmart> change the type->lose the preview

09:05:26< agateau> Half-Left: no pb

09:05:26< Flyser> Half-Left: but it does not show what it will look like when it's scaled or scaled and cropped

09:05:34< daskreech> That discussion isn't directly related to usability so I'll discuss with you later

09:05:39< jpwhiting> kk

09:05:58< jpwhiting> did I just serendipitously arrive at the time that ghns is going to be discussed next?

09:05:58< Flyser> notmart: It would work for the pattern plugin too

09:06:00< Half-Left> Flyser: I guess you can show that in the previews at different scales

09:06:02< seele> daskreech: yes, the goal is that everyone would have to use the icon and consistent labelling in all GHNS buttons

09:06:26< daskreech> jpwhiting: When it was just discussed :)

09:06:27< Half-Left> notmart: Yep, it's not adapted to 4.3 extra stuff

09:06:33< jpwhiting> seele: there's a knsbutton I believe

09:06:36< daskreech> Well no we are bringing it back up

09:06:37< jpwhiting> that invokes the dialog

09:06:38< daskreech> :)

09:06:49< jpwhiting> that has the star icon on it at the moment I think

09:06:51< jpwhiting> iirc

09:06:59< seele> jpwhiting: oh? what is the labelling in it?

09:07:08< jpwhiting> let me check

09:07:08< seele> "Get new [object]..."?

09:07:10< pinheiro> need to go anything you need from me i will be making icons

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09:07:21< seele> pinheiro: ok, thanks for coming!

09:07:25< agateau> Half-Left: i suggest adding such preview close to the Positioning combo, and make it more clear what it really does

09:07:38< agateau> Half-Left: like showing the rect cropped inside the full image

09:07:38< Flyser> agateau: agreed

09:08:35< Half-Left> Well, I don't how I can with the space availble

09:08:39< Flyser> What about not using the combobox at all, but let the user switch between multiple positioning previews

09:08:47< Half-Left> Pretty tight

09:09:02< Flyser> not sure what this should look like, but I think it would be sexy ;-)

09:09:27< daskreech> pinheiro: sorry if this has gone already has the empty folder icon been discussed already?

09:09:34< Half-Left> hmm, I see

09:09:55< jpwhiting> seele: it lets the app set any text at the moment

09:10:03< jpwhiting> tbh, not sure if it's used by any apps at the moment

09:10:08< Half-Left> Flyser: There is space there but it's tight because of translation

09:10:21< jpwhiting> knewstuff2/ui/knewstuffbutton.h is where it lives though

09:10:45< jpwhiting> if the app specifies text it uses that, otherwise it defaults to "Download New Stuff"

09:10:54< seele> jpwhiting: ok. i think the goal is to create a guideline so that developers set the label to something consistent

09:11:01< jpwhiting> I agree

09:11:35< jpwhiting> it's not public, so I think it's a leftover from kde 3.5 days actually

09:11:48< seele> good reason to work on it then :)

09:11:51< jpwhiting> we can revive this, and make it use the name of what they are getting from the knsrc file

09:11:54< jpwhiting> yeah, exactly

09:12:18< seele> ok, let's talk about it more later. i'll look up different labels people are using and think of some defaults, and i think pinheiro was going to look at creating a new icon

09:12:28< jpwhiting> ok, cool

09:12:34< seele> regarding the appearance UI

09:12:48< jpwhiting> I'd love some feedback on the interface itself also, it's a bit convoluted at the moment

09:12:53< jpwhiting> that where you are going next?

09:12:53< seele> Half-Left: it looks like you got some feedback. do you want to make some changes to your UI and then resubmit it for comment on the kde usability mailing list?

09:13:13< Half-Left> seele: Sure

09:13:25< seele> jpwhiting: hmm.. we started talking about the ui a while ago, but i think chani was next. maybe either next meeting or we can talk about it ourselves some time toon

09:13:29< seele> Half-Left: ok cool!

09:13:32< seele> Chani: are you back from food?

09:13:38< jpwhiting> seele: ok, sounds good to me

09:14:04< notmart> Half-Left: and plasma one too, since it's easy drawng something that gives big implementation problems :p

09:14:09< jpwhiting> I can check the log of this meeting later too right?

09:14:28< seele> jpwhiting: yes, hopefully someone will volunteer and post it :)

09:14:50< seele> ok, let's wait a few minutes for Chani to come back and we can help her with her UI

09:14:52< daskreech> jpwhiting: I think a minimum of functionality needs to be laid out

09:15:01< jpwhiting> daskreech: yeah

09:15:06< Half-Left> notmart: sho and aseigo have seen it and didn't see any biggy issues but who knows :)

09:15:15< seele> otherwise we can call it a short day

09:15:32< daskreech> seele: The list on techbase has been exhausted ?

09:15:40< seele> do people prefer weekday/weekend or early/late?

09:15:42< Flyser> Half-Left: This would be for 4.4 then?

09:15:48< seele> daskreech: the people who posted those items were not available to talk about them

09:15:54< daskreech> Ah ok

09:15:56< jpwhiting> hehe

09:16:15< Half-Left> Flyser: I've no idea really

09:16:20< seele> ok, we'll figure out the time later.. but next meeting in june!

09:16:28< seele> think about what you want to do for 4.4 and we can begin discussing them

09:16:39< seele> in addition to any usability bugs or other things that are bothering you

09:16:43< Flyser> Having this in 4.3 would be really cool, but I don't think its doable

09:17:03< notmart> Flyser: feature and more important, string freeze

09:17:19< Half-Left> If it can be done and people like it, then use it

09:17:50< Half-Left> Well we're in freeze so 4.3 is out of the question

09:18:07< Flyser> notmart: Yeah, that's why I doubt its doable ;-)

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09:20:35< Chani> seele: back

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09:21:39< Chani> ok, so for my soc project, users will be able to configure what happens when they click mouse buttons on the background.

09:21:47< Chani> this means it needs a config interface.

09:22:58< Chani> there are a few mouse buttons (1-3 and the wheel), there will be a handful of plugins in the beginning (but maybe more, since they're plugins), and I thought it'd be nice to allow modifiers on the buttons too (in trunk you can zoom plasma with ctrl+wheel iirc)

09:23:08< Chani> some of the plugins may also be configurable.

09:24:06< daskreech> Assuming that we aren't including logitech mice with like 9 buttons

09:24:10< agateau> Chani: can you give a few examples of what the plugins do?

09:26:15 * daskreech munches on Twix

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09:30:06< agateau> Chani, still here?

09:30:31< Chani> aargh

09:30:34< Chani> the internet's gone insane

09:30:57< Chani> ok, so half what I typed never made it, and I dunno if I'm gonna get dropped again

09:30:58< daskreech> You just noticed?

09:31:18< daskreech> Thought that was noted when Rick Rolled through

09:31:19< notmart> internet insane? naah, impossible :)

09:31:24< Chani> it's weird. it's like setting up a connection is hard, but pinging and getting data aren't a problem

09:31:35< Chani> aanyways

09:31:39< daskreech> Oh Yeah My ISP does that to me too

09:31:57< Chani> aseigo told me 9-button mice aren't supported by qt so I'm ignoring them for now

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09:32:10< agateau> :)

09:32:17< seele> Chani: do you have any screenshots? i think you showed me something a few weeks ago

09:32:32< Chani> seele: yes, ythat's one of the things that got cut off

09:32:41< Chani> give me a minute to remember where I was...

09:34:21< Chani> first mockup: http://chani.ccdevnet.org/sshots/soc09-mockup.png

09:34:35< Chani> project description: http://chani.ccdevnet.org/soc-application-2009.txt

09:34:46< Chani> agateau: some plugins should be mentioned in there

09:35:32< Half-Left> seele: Got to go, thanks for letting me show my work and ideas

09:35:37< Chani> now, that mockup works fine in *my* head but seems to scare other people :)

09:35:46< agateau> Chani: oh, this is the project you mentionned when we were talking about wheel actions!

09:35:57< Chani> we came up with another idea at the gsoc sprint

09:36:10< Chani> but that one is on paper, badly drawn

09:36:20< notmart> Chani: what about using a picture of a mouse, you click on the mouse art and can configure oit?

09:37:03< Chani> the idea was to have a list of plugins, kinda like how you have a list of actions in a keyboard shortcut configdialog, and have the config of button and modifier on each plugin entry

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09:37:13< seele> Chani: how many options are available for the third column?

09:37:19< agateau> Chani: i suggest a dual lists approach: on the left the available plugins, on the right the selected one. The list of the right would allow the user to select the mouse button and modifier

09:37:25< Chani> hmm

09:37:37< Chani> notmart: interesting idea.

09:38:15< Chani> agateau: I really don't like interfaces like that. I'm not sure why but I don't like them. they feel... disconnected, and make me think more

09:38:23< daskreech> I assume Configure is configure the Plugin ?

09:39:20< fredrikh> Chani: you know kwin already has a similar gui

09:39:22< Chani> seele: the third column being hte plugin choice? as many as are installed. I expect to create ... four regular plugins during my soc project, plus three meant for wheel events

09:39:34< Chani> daskreech: yes

09:39:49< agateau> Chani: hard to argue with this :/

09:40:16< agateau> kwin approach would not work here, because we have a limited set of available "slots" (combination of button+modifier)

09:40:31< agateau> so blindly checking/unckecking plugins won't work

09:40:45 * seele was thinking along the lines of what agateau suggested..

09:41:10< fredrikh> agateau: i mean the actions section

09:41:26< agateau> fredrikh: oh i see

09:41:29< Chani> kde4 seems to have been moving away from "pick from a list on hte left, configure details on the right" guis...

09:41:29 * agateau opens the dialog

09:42:14< agateau> Chani: it describes quite well what you want to achieve

09:42:25< agateau> pick a plugin, configure it

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09:43:08< Chani> crud, kolourpaint isn't working

09:43:27< Chani> agateau: yeah, but we do it so much nicer now with keyboard shortcuts

09:43:51< agateau> Chani: you mean the keyboard shortcut dialog?

09:43:55< Chani> you click an entry, the config stuff expands right there, instead of being off to the side

09:44:06< agateau> I was thinking about something like this actually

09:44:27< agateau> click the plugin you selected (in the list on the right)... and select the mouse button/modifier

09:45:03< Chani> it's the same sort of thing in a way - you have a list of plugins and you set a button+modifier on each - but have the controls embedded in the list instead of on hte right

09:45:08< agateau> but the keyboard shortcut is probably not the best example (it could be simplified imo)

09:45:13< fredrikh> Chani: http://ktown.kde.org/~fredrik/kwinsettings.png

09:45:13< Chani> ...except I don't know how to embed them like that :)

09:45:24< Chani> doing it the old-fashioned way *would* be easier

09:46:14< Chani> it'd also be cool if I could do shiny things like showing the config of each plugin inthe list, so you can see at a glance what buttons will do what

09:46:28< Chani> which hte keyboard shortcuts dialog does too

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09:46:38< PeterMG> chani: exactly

09:47:08< Chani> fredrikh: that kind of UI would probably work fine if I didn't allow modifiers

09:47:20< fredrikh> yep

09:47:41< Chani> seele: so there's nothing wrong with doing a list of plugins on the left and config for the selected list-entry on the right?

09:48:29< Chani> because maybe I could look into doing shiny embedded-in-the-list things but drop back to that if it turns out to be really hard

09:48:43< agateau> Chani: here is a mockup of my idea: http://imagebin.ca/view/s9Ine5.html

09:49:05< Chani> ...

09:49:10< agateau> With Left and Ctrl on the right being comboboxes

09:49:11< Chani> agateau: oh, that wasn't my idea at all

09:49:26< agateau> and an embedded "configure" button

09:50:20< PeterMG> agateau: fine, except I'd prefer dnd

09:50:58< agateau> PeterMG: sure, both can be done

09:51:48< Chani> oh crud, no wonder kolourpaint's crashing, it's from kdemod

09:51:55< agateau> or you could go for something more visual...

09:51:59 * agateau goes for another mockup

09:52:00< PeterMG> perhaps the plugin list with the kuickshow style on the right

09:52:28< Chani> PeterMG: huh?

09:52:46< PeterMG> selecting the plugin on the left will explode the config shown on the right

09:53:38< PeterMG> the left panel shows the config, the right panel its config

09:53:46< PeterMG> ack

09:54:01 * Chani is still confused

09:54:09< PeterMG> the left panel is the config list, the right shows the settings of the currently selected plugin

09:54:26< Chani> PeterMG: ah. I think that's what I thought agateau was suggesting

09:54:55< PeterMG> you can edit and save each plugin (using the right panel) and save or select any plugin (using the selected left panel)

09:56:14< seele> ah, agateau's mockup isn't quite what i was thinking about either

09:56:22< Chani> ugh, I can't use krita

09:56:23< seele> i was thinking about how the accessibility config UI is handled

09:56:37< seele> Chani: use open office and snip UI widgets using ksnapshot

09:56:45< seele> and use boxes to fill in the blanks

09:56:48< Chani> PeterMG: oh god now, I don't want a save button for every damn plugin, just save them all at the end

09:57:26< PeterMG> Chani: there is one global save, it only save the selected plugin (or apply)

09:57:46< Chani> PeterMG: no. just use the default save mechanism

09:57:59< Chani> there is NO reason whatsoever to save only a subset of hte configuration

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09:58:47< PeterMG> Chani: erm, we have 10 plugins, but I want to edit 3, so I select each one and config it, then save ...move on to the next ... etc

09:59:15< PeterMG> I see all the plugins listed on the left panel

09:59:26< PeterMG> and and can edit each one using the right panel

10:00:09< PeterMG> once setup I can ok, which saves the currently selected left panel plugin

10:00:19< PeterMG> as the default

10:00:24< PeterMG> or currently using one

10:00:27< seele> Chani: does the modifier need to be configured separately?

10:00:34< pinheiro> back so what did i miss

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10:01:23< agateau> Here is my other mockup: http://imagebin.ca/view/lpFbIQX.html

10:02:14< agateau> It's a variant of the previous one, except you would be adding mouses instead of rows in a list :)

10:02:42< agateau> and click the buttons and modifiers to select them

10:02:53< agateau> the X would remove the mouse

10:02:59< agateau> the C would configure the plugin

10:03:02< seele> Chani: what happens when you click Configure...? what options are there besides the key combination and the object?

10:03:09< PeterMG> agateau: great, but where does it show what is activated?

10:03:22< Chani> PeterMG: that's not normal kde workflow. when you change a set of keyboard shortcuts do you really want to save after every. single. shortcut?

10:03:48< Chani> seele: separeately? I don't think I understand

10:03:49< agateau> PeterMG: the mouse list on the right is the "list" of enabled plugins

10:04:03< Chani> seele: here's what I thought agateau was suggesting: http://imagebin.ca/view/O8th0Jb.html

10:04:23< PeterMG> Chani: no, that's not it, I want to save a plugin change, not every short-cut

10:04:25< Chani> seele: the configuration would depend on the plugin

10:04:26< seele> Chani: right, what does configure do?

10:04:30< seele> ah

10:04:54< Chani> seele: for instance, a plugin for showing a list of improtant applications would let you choose which applications to include in the list

10:04:57< agateau> Chani: problem with this is it's difficult to see if you have conflicts

10:05:57< seele> hmm

10:06:34< seele> Chani: do you use kopete? go to the plugins configure screen

10:06:51< seele> can you do something like that? the icon to configure, but then add another button to capture the key combo

10:07:31< seele> if you go into system settings > standard keyboard shortcuts

10:07:33< PeterMG> hmm, we have three sets of data, the plugins, the mouse clicks, and an activation list?

10:07:49< seele> and click on one of the shortcuts, there is a button that allows you to configure a shortcut by typing it, and it captures the modifier

10:07:53< daskreech> and keyboard shurtcuts

10:09:08< PeterMG> the activation and mouse clicks are static, but the plugin shows the mapping between mouse clicks and actions?

10:12:51< agateau> PeterMG: from what i understand, you decide to associate a plugin to a mouse click plus optional modifier

10:13:05 * Chani tries to figure out how to drag an image out of the gimp

10:13:21< PeterMG> agateau: it is a complete mapping of all mouse clicks

10:13:25< Chani> seele: no, I don't have kopete installed :(

10:13:48< seele> Chani: ok, i'll mock it up, mom

10:13:50< agateau> Chani: try to drag the layer from the layer list

10:14:46< agateau> PeterMG: some plugins can be configured, others cannot

10:14:47< PeterMG> agateau: yes, mouse + modifier

10:15:10< PeterMG> agateau: then they'd be grayed out?

10:15:33< agateau> PeterMG: the configure button would be grayed out

10:15:43< PeterMG> ok

10:16:20< PeterMG> What I see missing is a list of possible actions

10:16:38< Chani> the only potential problem I can see is if some power user wants to have one application-list on one mouse button and another appilcation-list on another button... most *other* plugins wouldn't make sense to be used more than once

10:16:48< Chani> PeterMG: the plugins are actions

10:17:11< PeterMG> oic

10:18:03< PeterMG> hmm, so the plugin usually allows zero or more unique mouse clicks

10:18:20< Chani> http://imagebin.ca/view/7KCklv.html <-- seele, that's my idea for something that shows info embedded in hte list of plugins. not sure how hard actual implementatioon would be.

10:18:30< agateau> PeterMG: the mouse click trigger the plugin

10:18:35< PeterMG> but some pwr user may want two or more per action?

10:18:51< Chani> PeterMG: the user associates mouse clicks with plugins, then the plugin gets run when the mouse click happens

10:19:13< Chani> PeterMG: I don't know what you mean by action.

10:19:40< PeterMG> Chani: raise + activate window

10:20:01< Chani> PeterMG: oookay, we're not on the same planet :)

10:20:18< agateau> PeterMG: Chani project is about actions on desktop, not kwin

10:20:47< PeterMG> Chani: yes, but he wanted a definition of action

10:21:17< agateau> PeterMG: action <=> plugin

10:21:42< agateau> PeterMG: in kwin, combination of mouse + modifier trigger actions

10:21:49< agateau> here they would trigger plugins

10:21:55< PeterMG> right

10:22:32< PeterMG> so only one mouse click + mod per plugin?

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10:22:40< Chani> oh, we'll probably want an about-button beside the config-button, I guess. urgh.

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10:23:02< seele> Chani: http://www.obso1337.org/chani-mockup.png

10:23:03< agateau> PeterMG: yes I think so

10:23:08< Chani> PeterMG: if we do it this way, then yes. which makes sense for something like a windowlist, but not so much for something as configurable as a list of apps

10:23:10< seele> checkbox to enable disable

10:23:23< seele> button to configure shortcut (like in keyboard shortcuts, supports modifier key)

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10:23:28< seele> button to configure plugin

10:23:31< seele> optional about plugin

10:23:36< seele> (got to go)

10:23:56< Chani> seele: hmm, yeah, that's the kind of embedded thing I was going for

10:24:44< Chani> am I going to end up making some kind of shiny doodad that records the mouseclick like hte shiny thingthat records the keypress(es) for setting keyboard shortcuts? :)

10:24:51< agateau> Chani: if you want to be able to associate the same plugin to multiple click+mod, then your ui needs to first let the user add click+mod, then associate the click+mod with a plugin

10:25:21< Chani> the only thing that irks me a little is the checkbox being waaay over to the left, instead of hte little-black-X that keyboard shortcuts have.

10:25:56< Chani> naturally I'd make it so that clicking the button-selector-button checked the checkbox... but... hmm

10:26:17< Chani> agateau: and then we're back to my original scary mockup.

10:26:25< Chani> hmm.

10:26:38< agateau> or something similar

10:26:58< agateau> this is probably the first question you need to answer: do you want to make this configuration possible?

10:27:14< Chani> the combination of click+mod has to be unique, which means it's not as simple as if the button alone was unique

10:27:21< Chani> hmmm.

10:27:23< PeterMG> Chani: what a about agateau's mouse image for each plugin, with each part highlighted?

10:27:25< Chani> I guess I have to think about that

10:27:48< PeterMG> Chani: icon - plugin list

10:28:11< Chani> hmm

10:28:22 * agateau draws another mockup

10:28:48< PeterMG> you can config the plugin by clicking the parts of the icon?

10:28:59< Chani> I worry about accessibility, with images. I guess I won't have to worry about the number of buttons on hte mouse changing if qt really doesn't support that... but...

10:29:38< PeterMG> Chani: does it really have to be an image, or just look like one?

10:30:05< Chani> ?

10:30:49< PeterMG> Chani: I thinking the image (whatever) has hotspots to toggle the state

10:31:11< PeterMG> Chani: so clicking the icon's left button will toggle it for the plugin

10:31:57< Chani> hrm. I also have to then flip the image if teh person's set lefthanded mode

10:31:58< PeterMG> because each plugin has its own icon, you can see whether two icons match, a conflict

10:33:34< agateau> Chani: http://imagebin.ca/view/gu2Z47.html

10:33:56< agateau> I don't think you need to worry about left/right handed

10:34:22< agateau> mmm not sure actually

10:35:49< PeterMG> agateau: not quite, the icons are listed with the plugin, so you can see conflicts

10:36:18< PeterMG> a single mouse panel is used to configure the selected plugin

10:36:30< PeterMG> and its icon will change accordingly

10:37:49< agateau> PeterMG: this would not allow assigning the same plugin to multiple click+mod, would it?

10:38:14< PeterMG> heh, you can list the icons hor in the plugin list

10:38:29< PeterMG> perhaps, plugin name - icon list

10:39:06< PeterMG> by clicking on the icon in the list you can reconfig it using the main mouse panel

10:39:12< PeterMG> or delete it

10:40:05< PeterMG> selecting the plugin and draging (add, remove button) it the panel will add another shortcut

10:40:17< PeterMG> icon

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10:43:37< agateau> have to go

10:43:46< agateau> bye

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11:22:32-!- MoRpHeUz [n=morphbr@kde/developer/asouza] has quit [Remote closed the connection]

11:32:45< daskreech> It allows modifiers like Ctrl+Left Click Etc?

11:36:22< PeterMG> daskreech: who're you asking?

11:37:12< daskreech> In general. The Shortcut thing I had thought was an optional keyboard shortcut to invoke the plugin. Just occured to me it may be a modifier for the mouse button only

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11:37:57< PeterMG> daskreech: yea, it looks like its for mouse, but includes kbd mods

11:38:07< daskreech> ok