Editing Projects/kde.org/Meetings/September08/Log (section)

==== Transcript ====

12:04: <Socceroos_home> ok, we'll officially open the meeting now

12:04: <frankkarlitschek> hi

12:04: <Melchiorre> For those that missed the agenda:  http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Meetings/September08  and  http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Planning

12:04: <Socceroos_home> We might start with the meeting outline and work our way through

12:05: <frankkarlitschek> good idea

12:05: <Socceroos_home> just jump in with your thoughts, ideas, criticism.

12:06: <Socceroos_home> Well, first up, we might as well talk about the current state of the KDE.org websites

12:06: <Melchiorre> ..which is pretty poor in some cases...

12:06: <annma> keeping a website up-to-date means at least 1 willing person with knowledge

12:07: <annma> willing is the key word

12:07: <irina_r> knowledge of what, exactly?

12:07: <Jucato> willing *and* able :)

12:07: <annma> knowledge of the content

12:07: <Jucato> ah but also of whatever CMS or wiki that will be used

12:07: <annma> for ex for edu.kde.org  you need to know the apps state

12:07: <_CitizenKane_> and knowledge of SVN in some cases

12:08: <annma> that's easy to get

12:08: <irina_r> I'd need a crash course in that case :-)

12:08: <rakekniven> Not for users

12:08: <irina_r> but being married to boud *that* is easy to get too

12:08: <frankkarlitschek> better than maintaining the content by hand would be if the content would be automatically fetched from existing data sources.

12:08: <Jucato> for example, annew and are very much willing to maintain userbase , but we both suck at PHP and MediaWiki :)

12:09: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: could you elaborate on that?

12:09: <Jucato> oops mom's home and dinner... bbl

12:09: <frankkarlitschek> like for example more prominent news from the dot

12:09: <annew> yup - I know no php and little mediawiki

12:09: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: the kde website itself is maintained through SVN, with commit hooks

12:09: <irina_r> I've only just started trying to teach myself pho

12:09: <irina_r> php, confound it

12:09: <rakekniven> I am working also on kde.de. 3 Volunteers disappeared because of svn

12:09: <irina_r> 'pho' would perhaps be yummy but not very useful in this case

12:09: <frankkarlitschek> or the kde commit digest is an excellent stuff. this could be on the kde.org homepage. with a niced layout of course.

12:10: <rakekniven> I would vote for a cms or wiki usage for kde.org pages

12:10: <frankkarlitschek> or the developer of the week. or the user of the week

12:10: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: that would be really nice, would be pretty easy to code as well

12:10: <frankkarlitschek> maintaining "static" content with an wiki or an cms. is not the future for a community project IMHO

12:10: <lemma> I like the idea of a CMS. like that you can separate the task of setting it up and of maintaining it

12:10: <Socceroos_home> agreed

12:11: <Socceroos_home> static content isn't going to stay relevant/exciting for long

12:11: <frankkarlitschek> exactly

12:11: <annma> yes

12:11: <frankkarlitschek> and it is a lot of work to keep it up to date

12:11: <rakekniven> static content is always outdated :-)

12:12: <rakekniven> /areas/appmonth is a wiki page in techbase. Remove it from svn. Link http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Application_of_the_month  Should I do that?

12:12: <cuco> i would like to add, that as a site maintainer, it's impossible to maintain a KDE site using the current scheme, unless you have a local apache/php installation

12:12: <irina_r> *some* static content is of course necessary, you have to have the information somewhere

12:12: <irina_r> does everybody do it on their own servers?

12:12: <irina_r> (ours is probably close to being overloaded already, and not very fast)

12:12: <Melchiorre> So is it fair to say that the current state of the websites involves a lot of static ocntent that is hard to maintain and hence outdated?

12:12: <Socceroos_home> cuco: very true

12:13: <Socceroos_home> Melchiorre: yep

12:13: <frankkarlitschek> for example multimedia.kde.org  would be a lot more interesting and easier to maintain if you could see the blog post of the developers, twitter posts, svn commits and stuff from the commit digest there. and easier to maintain than boring static texts

12:13: <annma> totally

12:13: <irina_r> blog-like setup is nice

12:14: <cornelius> frankkarlitschek: that's a good point. this kind of dynamic content would be great to have on the sub-community sites.

12:14: <annew> but there needs to be a way of asking questions too

12:14: <annma> and to share data

12:14: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: that's a great point, actually I think having a laconica (http://laconi.ca/trac/) install for KDE would be one way to help with that

12:14: <Socceroos_home> to be able to make the content more dynamic we will need to identify the data sources that we can draw off. This will also be useful for the open collaboration side of things

12:14: <irina_r> and getting the answers somewhere in public so everybody can benefit

12:13: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: getting a blog like setup is pretty easy with a CMS

12:13: <cornelius> I think we should separate the technical and the content discussion.

12:13: <irina_r> never worked with one unless you count blosxom, but I learn fast

12:13: <frankkarlitschek> yes. good point

12:13: <cornelius> how it's implemented is the second question.

12:16: <frankkarlitschek> yes

12:16: <cornelius> the first question is what do we want to have on our web pages.

12:16: <frankkarlitschek> and using a cms, or wiki or blog isn't solving the main problem. which is the generation and maintaining of the texts and contents.

12:17: <Socceroos_home> dynamic content. Specifically? others can answer that, Frank had some good examples

12:17: <Nightrose> troubalex_: here?

12:17: <annma> we want up-to-date information and data sharing for Edu

12:17: <Nightrose> hmm doesn't seem so so I will jump in

12:17 -!- edneymatias [n=matias@ns1.prognus.com.br] has joined #kde-www

12:18: <Nightrose> noserub.com  <- open source friendfeed version

12:18: <Socceroos_home> Ok - how are we going to go about sorting through the information to sift out the obsolete data?

12:18: <Nightrose> maybe that is interesting for you

12:18: <cornelius> annew: what kind of info do you want to have on the web site?

12:18: <edneymatias> hi all

12:18: <Nightrose> that would be handy in agregating blogs/twitter/... feeds of developers

12:18: <annma> you mean me probably cornelius

12:19: <cornelius> annma: yes, sorry.

12:19: <annma> users want mostly apps related info, tips, latest news

12:19: <frankkarlitschek> annma: yes. good point

12:20: <annew> annma: agreed

12:20: <annma> demos

12:20: <annew> and one easy place to find it

12:20: <cornelius> annma: for apps related info and tips userbase would be the right platform, wouldn't it?

12:20: <Socceroos_home> yeah

12:20: <annew> (or links to it)

12:20: <frankkarlitschek> annma: and this stuff should be user generated. or fetched from other existing sources. not maintained by hand

12:20: <Nightrose> identoo.com  <- is a website running noserub

12:20: <_CitizenKane_> annew: along with that, it would be great to have a place for screencasts and things like that

12:20: <annew> _CitizenKane_: indeed

12:21: <irina_r> some moderation for user generated content?

12:21: <annew> frankkarlitschek: part user generated

12:21: <annew> part fetched, I agree

12:21: <annew> irina_r: yes, it needs an eye on it

12:21: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: I'm in favor of community moderation, just having content be rateable, hiding the things with bad ratings

12:21: <annew> and our current technical problem is not helping with that

12:22: <frankkarlitschek> irina_r: moderation could be necessary

12:22: <annew> _CitizenKane_: mostly, yes

12:22: <troubalex_> Nightrose: thanks.

12:22: <Nightrose> ;-)

12:22: <annew> some interaction with Talk pages is necessary

12:22: <annew> if we encourage people to ask question

12:23: <annew> someone has to be around to pick them up

12:23: <frankkarlitschek> kde has a few hundred developers and a few hundred thousand users. it would be great if we could involve the users too.  somehow.

12:23: <annew> which leads to whether more info is needed on the main pages

12:23: <annew> frankkarlitschek: yes - still trying to work out the best way of getting to them

12:23: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: that would be, I think the KDE websites right now kind of leave users off to the side

12:23: <cornelius> annew: isn't for question a forum better?

12:23: <irina_r> should at least have links to stuff users want to know

12:24: <irina_r> (i.e. static content like manuals)

12:24: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: agreed. getting the community involved in the process will help ensure its long-term sustainability

12:24: <annew> cornelius: irina_r: not sure - we haven't been too successful in some areas, with those resources

12:24: <irina_r> why not?

12:24: <irina_r> (not a rhetorical question)

12:25: <annew> if you read MLs it's clear that users don't know where to find info

12:25: <annew> there has to be an easy starting place to help them find it

12:25: <irina_r> ah, that's a point we have to address, then

12:25: <rakekniven> when will the new forum be launched? Somebody mentioned that there will be a new one

12:25: <Socceroos_home> annew: i have to agree. when I first started with kde, finding help on topics or applications was very confusing

12:25: <annew> I've been using kde for 6 years and didn't know many of the places that exist

12:25: <cornelius> annew: I would see userbase as this place.

12:26: <annew> cornelius: I hope so

12:26: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: i think so too

12:26: <irina_r> I think I don't know many of the places that exist either

12:26: <rakekniven> me too. Userbase is good

12:26: <OhReally> new forum: copying the files right now; hoping to get the announcement out this weekend.

12:26: <cornelius> annew: and maybe specific application or subcommunity web pages as entry point linking to userbase.

12:26: <annew> links in both directions - yeah

12:26: <Socceroos_home> I personally feel that all these subdomains are really getting in the way more than they are being useful

12:26: <Melchiorre> OhReally: fantastic :)

12:27: <OhReally> :)

12:27: <rakekniven> Posted userbase link to german kde usenet group and many people started visiting userbase.

12:27 -!- BernhardRode [n=br@213.182.147.226] has joined #kde-www

12:27: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: just a matter of getting the information to all the users, and making sure it gets decent search results rankings

12:27: <Nightrose> OhReally: thx for the email - everything ready for launch?

12:27: <cornelius> annew: I wouldn't see much own content on a site like e.g. kontact.kde.org . this could just be a redirect to a kontact start page on userbase.

12:27: <annew> didn't think of usenet - I'll look into that

12:28: <annew> cornelius: some sites are doing that already

12:28: <annew> utils, I think

12:28: <Socceroos_home> OK - I reckon we can move on to point 2 in the Meeting outline, unless there is anything more to say?

12:28: <rakekniven> Just an example that many people are not aware of that new resource

12:28: <OhReally> Nightrose: as said: copying the files, dumping the db... should be done in 1 or 2 hours.

12:28: <Nightrose> nice

12:29: <annew> Socceroos_home: copyright is a headache

12:29: <annew> there's no notice on most pages, so we don't know what's allowed

12:29: <Socceroos_home> What do people think of slimming down the ammount of subdomains and consolidating much of the data into userbase and techbase?

12:29: <_CitizenKane_> what is the licensing on the content of the pages?

12:29: <annew> Socceroos_home: from a user POV I'm in favour

12:30 -!- pinheiro [n=pinheiro@81.193.18.233] has joined #kde-www

12:30: <irina_r> Socceroos_home: as long as people are redirected properly, in favour

12:30: <pinheiro> hey

12:30: <annew> _CitizenKane_: it's not always obvious

12:30: <Melchiorre> Socceroos_home: I totally agree with trying to centralise everything

12:30: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I'm in favor, ~40 subdomains is a lot

12:30: <rakekniven> Socceroos_home: I like it

12:30: <Socceroos_home> hello pinheiro

12:30: <pinheiro> sory im late

12:30: <frankkarlitschek> hi pinheiro

12:30: <irina_r> it's very frustrating to go somewhere and find it's dead and not to know where to go instead.

12:30: <evan_> hi all - I agree with Socceroos, consodlidate as much as possible

12:30: <Socceroos_home> irina_r: agreed

12:30: <annew> irina_r: +1

12:30: <_CitizenKane_> hi pinheiro

12:30: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: just don't put too much into the consolidated pages - less is more ;-)

12:31: <Nightrose> hey pinheiro :)

12:31: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: the subdomains help with that

12:31: <rakekniven> No page is better than outdated content.

12:31: <_CitizenKane_> Sounds like it might be worth establishing a license for all content that goes onto KDE websites

12:31: <pinheiro> just got back from bed had to take sebas to the airport and that was way to early

12:31: <pinheiro> :)

12:31: <pinheiro> _CitizenKane_: were images goes that might be complicated

12:32: <Melchiorre> I imagine using the same licence KDE is released under would be the best move...

12:32: <Melchiorre> (is it GPL 2?)

12:32: <pinheiro> itsl loads

12:32: <_CitizenKane_> pinheiro: isn't all the oxygen stuff under some creative commons license?

12:33: <pinheiro> _CitizenKane_:  double

12:33: <pinheiro> lgpl and cc

12:33: <pinheiro> you chose

12:33: <Socceroos_home> Should we be mandating that everything be under an approved open source licence?

12:33: <pinheiro> dough not all the imagery i get is like that

12:33: <_CitizenKane_> ok, I think that would be reasonable for website content, assuming we could relicense all the old stuff, and I know there are some complicated issues

12:33: <irina_r> hmm, I don't know if we can mandate it, but we can always ask it

12:34: <pinheiro> geting stock photos under that type of licnce is totaly impossible

12:34: <evan_> relicensing would definitely help people feel more enthusiastic about helping maintain the sites and content

12:34: <cornelius> pinheiro: shouldn't we then avoid using these photos?

12:34: <pinheiro> and we used some

12:35: <Socceroos_home> Just thinking about the community and user added content, what kind of licence issues can anyone foresee we may have?

12:35: <cornelius> I think the content of our web sites should be as free as our software.

12:35: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: agreed

12:35: <pinheiro> cornelius:  its the simplest way to get professional photos that have a messg to it

12:35: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: It almost seems like mandating it might be necessary, if KDE is maintaining the infrastructure, otherwise someone get set up their own space for it

12:35: <irina_r> yeah, concede

12:35: <cornelius> pinheiro: i realize that. but i think it's worth to do some extra effort to get a free website.

12:35: <pinheiro> actulay I would hevn like to have a buget to be able to buy that type of photos

12:36: <annma> what photos are you talking about?

12:36: <pinheiro> duno if you guys hve done that sort of work but its a real pain

12:36: <Socceroos_home> What about screencasts, demos, videos, photos that the community starts adding? What about the dynamic content we wish to have? Will we be drawing on data sources that may conflict with our licences?

12:36: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: Well, I could forsee people not liking the licensing of what they do

12:36: <pinheiro> and stock photos website are so much simpler

12:36: <_CitizenKane_> But I believe wikipedia does it

12:37: <pinheiro> than sorting them out on flicker and trusting that the licence they posted there is the real thing....

12:37: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: that's a good point, I really should look into the licensing for twitter, etc.

12:37: <cornelius> pinheiro: would it be possible and feasible to buy photos and then publishing under a free license?

12:37: <pinheiro> noooo

12:38: <pinheiro> i actually tried that several times

12:38: <pinheiro> the guys simply dont get it

12:38: <pinheiro> they were like shocked about the licence

12:38: <pinheiro> to the point of being rude

12:38 -!- Zarin [n=cr@kde/developer/lmurray] has joined #kde-www

12:38: <Melchiorre> jyay! 34 :)

12:39: <cornelius> pinheiro: seems like photographers still have a lot to learn...

12:39: <Zarin> Did I miss it?

12:39: * pinheiro have lot of experience on that

12:39: <Socceroos_home> I'm of the opinion that if we're going to involve the community in maintaining our sites (through dynamic content and the like) that we're going to run into copyright issues. So we either have to mandate licence compliance or have an effective process for quickly removing objectionable content.

12:39: <irina_r> only the first part of it but I'll post the log somewhere

12:39: <Melchiorre> Is this the kind of question we shoul dbe referring on to KDE e. V?

12:39: <Zarin> irina_r, :)

12:39: <irina_r> (I can promise Monday)

12:39: <pinheiro> cornelius: the typical way to get them is to say somthing like hey our exposure is about 25.000.000 desktops

12:39: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I'm sure we'll have to do both, because inevitably people will post copyrighted content

12:39: <Socceroos_home> Melchiorre: Good point.

12:40: <irina_r> their own copyright or someone else's?

12:40: <pinheiro> but only 1 out of each 10 get it

12:40: <annew> so how would we know if copyright content was included?

12:40: <Melchiorre> we wouldn't

12:40: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: for user contributed content we have to demand license compliance.

12:40: <pinheiro> you guys remember the ireland akademy images???

12:40: <Socceroos_home> Would clear warnings about licencing issues scare people away from adding content?

12:40: <irina_r> cornelius: good point

12:41: <pinheiro> those were stock photos

12:41: <cornelius> I think we need a very strict policy for this.

12:41: <frankkarlitschek> Socceroos_home: this is not a big problem. the user is responsible for the content he posts. we have to take the content down if we see a copyright violation of course. this is the same as svn commits, or wiki posts for example.

12:41: <cornelius> Probably something similar to what Wikipedia does. They know this stuff.

12:41: <pinheiro> yeap

12:41: <Socceroos_home> pinheiro: we're would have to rely on the community to flag copyrighted content.

12:41: <evan_> if there's an effective and fast method for removing objectionable content, then it shouldn't be a problem

12:41: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: I agree, we do need a strict policy, otherwise we could have content that 10 years down the road no one can use

12:41: <pinheiro> thats what w do any way

12:43: <annew> I'm in favour of copyright info being as obvious as possible - unmissable

12:43: <_CitizenKane_> Ok, I think now we can move onto number 2

12:43: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: Yep.

12:43: <Melchiorre> you mean 3

12:43: <rakekniven> 1.3

12:43: <irina_r> 1.3?

12:44: <_CitizenKane_> Melchiorre: I suppose 1 and 2 got a little bundled together

12:44: <Melchiorre> Does anyone know of an example of a website thats doing exactly what we want?

12:44: <rakekniven> good question?

12:45: <Socceroos_home> Also, for websites that *are* being well maintained, are they going to be less likely to want to follow our strategies of consolidating content in the xBases?

12:45: <annma> they are maintained by 1 person mainly Socceroos_home

12:46: <annma> edu is maintained by me, games by it-s

12:46: <Socceroos_home> ok

12:46: <annew> there needs to be an advantage to the maintainer, as well as to the user

12:46: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I think the only ones that may not want to change immediately may be Amarok and possibly digikam

12:46: <rakekniven> for some apps the xbases work perfect. for bigger apps like amarok it won't, maybe

12:46: <Nightrose> _CitizenKane_: not going to change for amarok

12:47: <Nightrose> we want our own website

12:47: <Nightrose> and maintain it very well imho

12:47: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: hopefully we can offer enough of a benefit for them to eventually want to switch, but i agree.

12:47: <neverendingo> Melchiorre: what about something like that: http://www.yongfook.com/

12:47: <cornelius> I think there is nothing wrong with keeping specific websites separate.

12:47: <_CitizenKane_> Nightrose: yep, I don't see any conflict there and leaving some of the bigger apps out isn't a problem

12:47: <rakekniven> ack

12:47: <Socceroos_home> Nightrose: thats interesting, that will be important when we go on to discuss open collaboration

12:47: <pinheiro> yes

12:47: <cornelius> we shold stay flexible here to be able to adjust to specific needs of specific groups.

12:48: <annew> If dynamic linking can be done that would work wonders

12:48: <irina_r> yes!

12:48: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: depends on what you need from us and where we need to work together

12:48: <Socceroos_home> dynamic linking?

12:48: <evan_> the important thing is that information is easy to find

12:48: <_CitizenKane_> neverendingo: that isn't bad, not exactly what I'd have in mine, but certainly close than what we have right now

12:48: <cornelius> but we should offer a solution for those sub sites which are not well maintained or where maintainers want to switch to another system.

12:49: <Nightrose> yea imho you really should start with the unmaintained sites and get them in a very good shape

12:49: <Nightrose> the rest can follow if needed and wanted

12:49: <Nightrose> the unmaintained sites are work enough for months at least

12:49: <Melchiorre> neverendingo: you mean the design and layout of that site, or the functionality?

12:49: <cornelius> Nightrose: agreed.

12:49: <neverendingo> _CitizenKane_: it's extensible and open source

12:49: <Socceroos_home> but, getting them in good shape, as we've discussed, may involve moving most content to userbase and techbase

12:49: <neverendingo> Melchiorre: the functionality

12:49: <rakekniven> Put content to xbases and redirect subdomains like mentioned before

12:49: <pinheiro> Nightrose: +1

12:50: <ungethym> xbase = userbase and techbase?

12:50: <_CitizenKane_> ungethym: yep

12:50: <rakekniven> yes

12:50: <annew> Socceroos_home: it's not easy to deal with content that is years out of date

12:50: <Socceroos_home> ungethym: yeah

12:50: <annew> you need to know the project

12:51: <ungethym> thx.

12:51: <_CitizenKane_> neverendingo: it's an idea certainly

12:51: <annew> to be able to virtually re-write it

12:51: <Nightrose> neverendingo: get in touch with troubalex_ about that

12:51: * troubalex_ waves to neverendingo

12:51: <Socceroos_home> annew: I know. So should we be trying to? or should we be retiring them?

12:51: <neverendingo> will try that out first on my own server, but it seems nice

12:52: <rakekniven> Do we really need to migrate years old content?

12:52: <troubalex_> neverendingo: I will meet the developper next week. any thought from your side is very welcome

12:52: <annew> rakekniven: if we don't we have to find someone able to write substitute info

12:52: <irina_r> rakekniven: depends whether it's still relevant

12:52: <neverendingo> troubalex_: ok, thx, will let you know

12:52: <annew> assuming that the project is still maintained

12:52: <Nightrose> troubalex_: neverendingo has another one it seems

12:53: <troubalex_> Nightrose: aha? which?

12:53: <Jucato> shouldn't we contact first the people involved with the project, give them a chance to reply, before we decide to take matters into our hands (whether it be ditch, upgrade, or migrate)?

12:53: <Jucato> s/project/website/

12:53: <Nightrose> troubalex_: http://www.yongfook.com/  seems to be powered by sweetcorn (whatever that is)

12:54: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: I agree

12:54: <troubalex_> Nightrose: just found the url... thx

12:54: <annew> Jucato: when you tell me that some project is unmaintained, how do you know that?

12:54: <irina_r> Jucato: +1

12:54: <Socceroos_home> We need to give devs ample time to give their thoughts on their particular website and then decide what to do with it after that

12:54: <irina_r> if it hasn't been updated since say 2005, can't we be pretty sure it's unmaintained?

12:54: <_CitizenKane_> Jucato: +1

12:54: <Jucato> annew: case to case basis. usually I play it by ear, if the app has been migrated to KDE 4

12:55: <Socceroos_home> annew: doesn't necessarily need to be a project, just their site

12:55: <annew> Socceroos_home: some of the devs listed on those pages don't seem to be around any more

12:55: <Jucato> then we contact the app's current maintainers (AUTHORS file usually)

12:55: <annew> Socceroos_home: I've been trying to get contact with some of those people without success, sometimes

12:55: <Socceroos_home> annew: yeah

12:56: <annew> so we need some sort of system to work out where we can contact folk and where we can't

12:56: <rakekniven> same here e.g. kookka

12:56: <Jucato> then we give them an ultimatum... reply... or your bases are belong to us!!

12:56: <rakekniven> kooka

12:56: <cornelius> for the stuff which is in svn, it's easy to find out how has worked on it by looking at the logs.

12:56: <Socceroos_home> annew: agreed

12:57: <annew> perhaps we can add wiki info somewhere about attempts to contact and result?

12:57: <Socceroos_home> while we can easily see that content is out of date, we should also contact the appropriate devs and see if they had any plans etc.

12:57: <Socceroos_home> annew: good idea

12:57: <Jucato> in techbase  of course :)

12:57: <annew> just 'working on it' or 'no replies'

12:57: <Socceroos_home> we're going to have to do it one by one. there is no quick way to do this

12:57: <pinheiro> yeah

12:57: <annew> agreed

12:57: <Jucato> +1101

12:57: <annew> but if we add info as we handle it

12:57: <rakekniven> Is somebody writing a kind of resumee?

12:57: <annew> we won't be duplicating effort

12:57: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: we can split up the list and each take certain devs

12:58: <Socceroos_home> yep

12:58: <_CitizenKane_> rakekniven: I just started writing an overview

12:58: <rakekniven> 1+

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12:58: <Jucato> rakekniven: kooka has been "replaced" by skanlite btw (afaik)

12:58: <rakekniven> website is still listed

12:59: <pinheiro> _CitizenKane_:  can you put it online so i can see what i missed, i know that this will menn work for me ;)

12:59: <Jucato> hm...

12:59: <annew> Jucato: how the * is a user supposed to know that?

12:59: <Jucato> annew: they're not. it's our job to make that info accessible :)

12:59: <annew> Jucato: but it's typical of what happens

12:59: * Jucato was just giving an fyi :)

12:59: <Socceroos_home> OK, so we should do this(?): Contact the devs/maintainers of each site and discuss their sites future, talk about its current state - offer to migrate it to XBases

12:59: <_CitizenKane_> pinheiro: I'll blog about it

12:59: <annew> and the info doesn't get around

12:59: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: sounds good

12:59: <Jucato> annew: right. that's why I was personally obssessed with the App Catalogue in UserBase :)

13:00: <Socceroos_home> ok

13:00: <Socceroos_home> NEXT POINT :D

13:00: <Jucato> which point?

13:00: <rakekniven> 2

13:00: <Jucato> What obstacles are there that would make improving KDE websites difficult?  <--- ?

13:00: <annew> obstacles?

13:01: <Socceroos_home> We have touched on point 2 in some ways

13:01: <Melchiorre> I think it'd be better to set up the new site and have  a base running before we start contacting anyone...

13:01: <Socceroos_home> but basically....

13:01: <rakekniven> userbase is already there

13:01: <rakekniven> ... and growing

13:01: <irina_r> but do users know of it?

13:01: <Jucato> irina_r: we're doing our best to advertise it :)

13:01: <rakekniven> No, I mentioned this on kde-www ml this week

13:01: <Jucato> rakekniven: it's not exactly for app web pages though

13:02: <annew> irina_r: not enough yet

13:02: <irina_r> I only knew of it because I follow the planet and stuff like that

13:02: <Jucato> well it was announced on the Dot

13:02: <annew> rakekniven: we link to app web pages and

13:02: <annew> if pages get migrated to userbase the links just need changing

13:02: <ungethym> is the desicion made to use techbase and userbase?

13:02: <Jucato> um...

13:03: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: if we redirect everything it should so up in search engines

13:03: <Socceroos_home> We've talked about point 2 well enough. We have decided that all this scattered content is impossible - consolidate. Contact unmaintained site owners and discuss future

13:03: <rakekniven> Why not having subpages for each app where the author/team can put all content he want?

13:03: <_CitizenKane_> ungethym: at least as far as app information, I believe it's a yes

13:03: <Jucato> let's just make it clear. UserBase is for user-relevant information. that's our focus.

13:04: <Jucato> rakekniven: see ^^^

13:04: <ungethym> because I would prefer (at the moment) one site for one app.

13:04: <Socceroos_home> and techbase?

13:04: <Jucato> KDE development

13:04: <annma> technical stuff

13:04: <Socceroos_home> cant most information be split between the two and still be relevant?

13:04: <Jucato> KDE or app development

13:04: <annew> ungethym: if devs want that, then we just link.  easy

13:04: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: they can *if* they're willing

13:04: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I think that is probably what most of the app pages are like right now

13:04: <Jucato> (which is what I mentioned much much earlier)

13:05: <ungethym> because I'm not shure there is a clear difference between user and developer in the field of open source.

13:05: <annew> users got scared off from techbase - we don't want them scared away from userbase :-)

13:05: <Jucato> ungethym: there is. end-users don't usually KDE from trunk for development :)

13:05: <annma> ungethym: it's pretty clear

13:05: <cornelius> ungethym: but there is a difference between user and developer content.

13:05: <irina_r> all developers are users but not all users are/want to be developers

13:05: <annew> and those that do can read both

13:06: <ungethym> ok. convinced.

13:06: <Socceroos_home> so what are most subdomain sites now? User or developer?

13:06: <annma> user

13:06: <rakekniven> So, discussing the future is not easy if we are not sure were to put the content of old sites

13:06: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: depends. sometimes both

13:06: <annma> games and edu are user content

13:07: <Jucato> annma: except you have a section called "Develop" :)

13:07: <_CitizenKane_> Seems to be an almost even split

13:07: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: usually, the subdomains or app websites contain both user and developer information.

13:07: <cuco> i would like to raise the issue of international sites. we have ~10 sites. what we expect from from those international sites?

13:07: <irina_r> user and dev sections seems a good idea

13:08: <annma> Jucato: that's very tiny anyway and techbase bitched me for Edu

13:08: <Socceroos_home> cuco: hopefully a CMS will allow for easier translation of content

13:08: <ungethym> irina_r: in one site?

13:08: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: seems like we could put user information on userbase, and then have the developer section their link to techbase

13:08: <rakekniven> My vote for this 1+

13:09: <_CitizenKane_> * developer section there, it's way too early

13:09: <rakekniven> the last 5 years we translated ~1000 news articles to german

13:09: <Melchiorre> _CitizenKane_: +1

13:09: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: yeah, i think we need to encourage moving towards using xbases for most content that is 'Learning' related

13:09: <irina_r> ungethym: what _CitizenKane_ said

13:09: <cuco> Socceroos_home: so you expect a 1:1 translation? what happens when the local site needs something more... localized? (happy local hollyday or such)

13:09: <rakekniven> It is a pain in the ass using svn + dot + php for this

13:09: <annew> _CitizenKane_: +1 - but I have heard of folk being told that their content was not technical enough for techbase

13:09: <annma> I think localized sites taht are maintained and want to stay can stay cuco

13:10: <Jucato> I vote for creating midbase.kde.org :D

13:10: <annew> cuco: room for both, I think

13:10: <_CitizenKane_> annew: if that's the case we may just have to expand what is technical enough

13:10: <rakekniven> hahaha

13:10: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: hahaha

13:10: <_CitizenKane_> hahaha

13:10: <Melchiorre> hahaha?

13:10: <Socceroos_home> Mabey we need guidelines for 'technical' and 'user'?

13:10: <_CitizenKane_> Jucato: I believe it's poweruser.kde.org

13:10: <_CitizenKane_> ;)

13:10: <rakekniven> Even better :-)

13:10: <Jucato> _CitizenKane_: PowerBase

13:10: <Jucato> follow the pattern!!

13:11: <Jucato> :P

13:11: <cuco> annma annew that still does not answer my original question, what content should i put on my localized site? shuold it mirror exactly whats on the "main site"? more or less? do i have complete freedom?

13:11: <annew> Socceroos_home: if it involved compiling it's not for the general user :-)

13:11: <annma> you have freedom cuco

13:11: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: I think the distinction *should* be simple: TechBase for *development*, UserBase for usage

13:11: <irina_r> annew: exactly!

13:11: <Jucato> annew: I would somewhat disagree...

13:11: <annew> cuco: I would suggest that you get the main info translated but have freedom to do anything suitable local-wise

13:12: <irina_r> but the general user of X can be a poweruser of Y and developer of Z

13:12: <Jucato> that would categorize a lot of themes in kde-look as "for techbase" only :)

13:12: <evan_> there is always going to be a grey area between users and developers

13:12: <rakekniven> international sites should be able to use translated content from kde.org/dot and add own country specific content

13:12: <Jucato> "compiling" != "development"

13:13: <Jucato> "powerusers" are still "users"... doesn't exactly make them developers/contributors automatically

13:13: <annew> Jucato: true - so where does such info go?  In Tutorials?

13:13: <evan_> trying to specify too much seems to result in subdomains... :P

13:13: <Jucato> annew: Tutorials or Troubleshooting, depending on the content

13:13: <irina_r> if it's for normal users (i.e. automatically excluding everybody here at the moment) it needs to be clear that you don't have to be a techie to be a user

13:13: * annew worries that powerusers get lost between the two

13:13: <_CitizenKane_> annew: I think we'll just need a power users section of userbase

13:13: <irina_r> I know lots of people who still thik everything linux is only for techies

13:13: <Jucato> hence Power/MidBase

13:13: <Melchiorre> cuco: one of the plans for the website makeover was to have multi-lingual capabilities built in, which would hopefully do away with the need for you to maintain a separate "mirror" of the website.  instead you could just have a website for regional specific stuff...

13:13: <Socceroos_home> Something like howtoforge?

13:13: <Jucato> _CitizenKane_: sure :)

13:14: <annew> _CitizenKane_: ok - we just talk out how to achieve it.  I'm generally in favour

13:14: <Jucato> we're hoping the Tutorials section would expand to rival TLDP

13:14: <Jucato> >:)

13:14: <irina_r> ideally my 13-year-olds should be able to get around on userbase

13:14: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: that would be cool

13:13: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: +110

13:13: <Jucato> (that would be.. +6.. hm..)

13:13: <Socceroos_home> OK - POINT 3 - Changing to a CMS system :)

13:13: <annew> I'd still like skill ratings, something like O'Reilley's * Hacks series

13:13: <irina_r> ooh yes!

13:16: <Socceroos_home> Do people think that changing to a CMS is a good idea?

13:16: <Jucato> annew: that could be implemented.. I hope there are extensions :)

13:16: <rakekniven> Yes!

13:16: <evan_> yep

13:16: <ungethym> CMS +1

13:16: <cornelius> for what do we need the cms?

13:16: <cuco> CMS+1

13:16: <Jucato> sure! but I'm thinking about how some people like to integrate the site with SVN

13:16: <Jucato> cornelius:

13:16: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: easy content management

13:16: <Jucato> er..

13:17: <Jucato> cornelius: much easier to create content

13:17: <Jucato> (and manage)

13:17: <cuco> we need it, since this is the only way content editors can modify the site without having a local apache installation and thus lowering the entry point for maintaining the site

13:17: <cornelius> didn't we just talk about moving content to techbase and userbase? So the cms is already taken care of.

13:17: <Socceroos_home> no need for svn or HTML PHP knowledge

13:17: <Jucato> cornelius: not everything

13:17: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: well for the main kde.org a CMS would make a lot of sense

13:18: <Socceroos_home> Using a CMS is a big step to making it accessible for the general community to help contribute information

13:18: <cornelius> I think before we talk about CMS we have to talk about what content we want to provide.

13:18: <Jucato> and not every type of content is suited for a wiki

13:18: <cornelius> the wikis work very fine for community contributed content.

13:18: <ungethym> CMS for the main-site (with feed-integration) and a Wiki and Forum for Userbase

13:18: <rakekniven> Getting rid of svn + php + html . Having roles and many more people contributing content (as draft maybe).

13:19: <cornelius> what kind of content are you thinking of?

13:19: <ungethym> cornelius: only a wiki?

13:19: <cornelius> the main kde site has only very little content which is changed regularly?

13:19: <rakekniven> user news

13:19: <Socceroos_home> Articles, news, feeds

13:19: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: static style pages, news posts, blogs, tweets

13:19: <Socceroos_home> dynamic content

13:20: <_CitizenKane_> translated content I think would be big, getting translated news through svn I imagine wouldn't be too easy

13:20: <cornelius> ok, dynamic content is a point. but that is maintained elsewhere anyway.

13:20: <Jucato> content you don't want to be editable, content you don't want to be visible ASAP except to a few

13:20: <Socceroos_home> moderation of contributed content

13:20: <Jucato> didn't I just say that? O.o

13:21: <Jucato> (ok in less technical terms...)

13:21: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: yeach, i'm slow

13:21: <Socceroos_home>  :D

13:21: <Jucato> :P

13:21: <cornelius> Jucato: I think we should minimize the parts which are not editable.

13:21: <cornelius> Jucato: and what should not be visible?

13:21: <Jucato> cornelius: [21:18] <Socceroos_home>  moderation of contributed content

13:21: <cornelius> Jucato: why whould we do that?

13:21: <Jucato> or some "pending" content

13:21: <Jucato> like release announcements, etc

13:22: <Socceroos_home> well, because if the community starts 'contributing' porn to our front page we want to be able to stop it.

13:22: <Jucato> cornelius: for example, in a wiki, anyone could edit or put stuff, and we can only react after the fact

13:22: <irina_r> why we would moderate? because every wiki has its contingent of kooks and spammers

13:22: <cornelius> ok, announcments are a good point. this is taken care of by the dot.

13:22: <Jucato> like someone put in a few pages "KDE needs a forum!"

13:22: <Socceroos_home> wiki is different to main site

13:23: <_CitizenKane_> and a with a wiki uploading video, images, etc. would be difficult

13:23: <Jucato> cornelius: the dot only announces or writes up, but the full release announcements and details are still on the website

13:23: <_CitizenKane_> also, a CMS can provide web services for application to interact with

13:23: <Jucato> a wiki is also not conducive for comments/discussion in threaded style

13:23: <ruphy> yo

13:23: <ruphy> sorry, I'm late

13:24: <ruphy> very late

13:24: <cornelius> moderating content makes it hard again to contribute. wikipedia shows that it works without that.

13:24: <Socceroos_home> Cornelius: Not using a CMS system means that we need to be using either a Wiki type system or have our own custom setup -- We all know how thats turned out

13:24: <ruphy> but couldn't do otherwise - just back from school :\

13:24: <rakekniven> It would be good to have announce on cms/wiki as well. Ask sebas or me

13:24: <rakekniven> announcements

13:24: <annew> AIUI wikipedia is not totally unmoderated

13:24: <Socceroos_home> wikipedia has many many reviewers

13:25: <ungethym> sorry, I have to leave. irina_r: did you say you would publish the logs?

13:25: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: I don't say that we don't need a CMS. I only say that we have to have a clear idea what to put there.

13:25: <Socceroos_home> everyone is crosschecking information on wikipedia - we don't have the manpower to emulate that

13:25: <Melchiorre> ruphy: we're still going strong.  Up to point 3: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Meetings/September08

13:25: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: not necessarily moderating content up front, but after posting, or having the community do most of the moderation

13:25: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: the whole point of this exercise is to get an active community behind the KDE web sites.

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13:26: <irina_r> ungethym: yes, by monday

13:26: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: CMS would be great for having a KDE social network, allowing people to interact, find each other

13:26: <frankkarlitschek> reviewing afterwards is the only way we can do. moderating every posting of every user is killing us, the user motivation or both. at least this is my experience with kde-look

13:26: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: agreed. that is equally possible with a CMS.

13:26: <ungethym> irina_r: excellent! Where could I get it?

13:26: <irina_r> ungethym: on my own site but I'll post a link here

13:27: <irina_r> or check www.valdyas.org/irina/stuff/ because that's wher it will be

13:27: <Socceroos_home> Plus a cms gives us the flexibility of creating module to give us good features

13:27: <cornelius> _CitizenKane_: this needs specific functionality. this is much more than just "CMS".

13:27: <rakekniven> This meeting here takes more time than expected. Please count me as an volunteer for:CMS and xBases, Contacting/migrating subdomains or other tasksI am against staying with svn/php for www after years doing that.I will check for resumee later, sorry.

13:27: <Jucato> hm.. wait wait... are we even inviting anyone and everyone to submit content to the site(s) in the first place?

13:28: <ungethym> irina_r: thanks.

13:28: <Jucato> (aside possibly for comments or discussion with users)

13:28: <cornelius> Jucato: that's what we do with xbase, right? and it seems to work.

13:28: <rakekniven> Why not? We need policies and reviewers ( I volunteer again).

13:28: <Jucato> cornelius: but the purpose of xbase is "collaborative writing".. will all other websites be such?

13:29: <cornelius> Jucato: I think we have to review the sites one by one and see, what the specific needs are.

13:29: <cornelius> Jucato: most of them will be handled fine by migrating the content to xbase, I think.

13:29: <cornelius> Jucato: and the remaining ones are mostly specific implementations anyway.

13:30: <Jucato> for example, would edu and games be taking in content from users? or do they just need a site they can easily maintain?

13:30: <Socceroos_home> But there needs to be a landing pad for users

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13:30: <annew> that's userbase's job

13:30: <Socceroos_home> a landing pad that isn't a static wiki page

13:30: <Socceroos_home> Sorry, i mean KDE

13:30: <Socceroos_home> kde's main site*

13:30: <irina_r> could we get developers to put a link to userbase in their About boxes?

13:31: <cornelius> irina_r: that's an excellent idea.

13:31: <Jucato> irina_r: frinring (kdeutils) already wanted to do so iirc

13:31: <Socceroos_home> when people think 'kde' they wont automatically go to userbase. so we will need a landing pad for everyone. and i recon it would be better that this is dynamic

13:31: <_CitizenKane_> annew: functionality wise here we aren't necessarily talking about finding app info, it might be finding other users

13:31: <irina_r> kde.org  seems the place where people would go, yes

13:31: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: In the end we could just have one single static page at www.kde.org which has a little bit of content and then links to more specific sites.

13:32: <annew> _CitizenKane_: unerstood - point 4.3

13:32: <BernhardRode> why not have a extra menu button "Online help" which automatically opens userbase at a specific page?

13:32: <irina_r> er, rather like the way it is now?

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13:32: <Socceroos_home> cornelus: true. but as discussed earlier, don't we want some dynamic content on the front page to keep it fresh?

13:32: <irina_r> BernhardRode: yes!

13:33: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: hm.. there already is.. at the bottom...

13:33: <Jucato> Latest News, Latest Applications... we probably need Planet too

13:33: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I'd be in favor of that

13:33: <_CitizenKane_> it's a bit buried right now

13:34: <Jucato> well, it's way way under :)

13:35: * Jucato listens to the crickets...

13:35: <Socceroos_home> OK, so would we see any benefits in using a CMS to help serve content?

13:35: <Socceroos_home> I think a CMS would make it easy to add complex features in the future.

13:36: <_CitizenKane_> and make it easier for content translation, fix misspellings, etc.

13:36: <Jucato> the present "presentation" of www.kde.org  (and its sub pages) is already ok.. imho the problem is that maintenance has to be done through SVN

13:37: <cornelius> Jucato: I don't think that SVN is the problem. The content on www.kde.org itself is hard to write, that's the main problem.

13:37: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: I think the look is a little dated. I totally agree that its way too hard to maintain it through svn though.

13:37: <frankkarlitschek> is this really the problem? how many people woant to maintain the content and are not willing to learn svn?

13:37: <ruphy> thanks Melchiorre

13:37: <_CitizenKane_> I imagine some pinheiro has some ideas to liven the look up

13:37: <cornelius> Jucato: you don't change the "What is KDE?" content all the time.

13:37: <Jucato> cornelius: hm... but if content is already hard to write... won't it be an additional burden to get it through svn?

13:38: <cornelius> Jucato: you don't have to. There are plently of people who have no problem with committing the content to SVN.

13:39: <cornelius> Jucato: I would happily volunteer to commit content in whatever format it is.

13:39: <Socceroos_home> but they need an account, which needs to be created/approved by someone else, after you've learnt svn. Its also another step you have to take before you can 'see' your content

13:39: <frankkarlitschek> i think it is more important for kde.org to have fresh and interesting content every day. a cms doesn't solve this.

13:40: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: it doesn't but it makes it easier for more people

13:40: <Jucato> ok... then maybe we can first try to establish 1. What content is needed 2. Who will be writing the content and 3. Who will be maintaining the site

13:40: <annew> frankkarlitschek: removing obstacles helps

13:40: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: I agree that this is a problem for the more specific sites. but not for www.kde.org.

13:40: <lemma> it also separates the process of providing cms modules from the process of providing content.. as well as separating content and looks

13:40: <Socceroos_home> I agree that a CMS doesn't specifically solve it, but it does lower the level of difficulty for a number of things

13:41: <BernhardRode> I think there are many ways to make interesting content.

http://laconi.ca/trac/ for example which is a free microblogging tool.

13:41: <Jucato> oh and 4. to whom does this apply? :)

13:41: <BernhardRode> or massive usage of rss

13:41: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: a CMS also introduces new barriers and problems. We have to make sure that it's worth it.

13:41: * Nightrose would have fixed a few minor issues here and there already if she had a svn commit bit for the www sites

13:41: <Nightrose> but it is harder than necessary to get that

13:41: <cornelius> The only way I see, is to become clear about what concrete content we want to put there.

13:41: <Socceroos_home> Basically, we mostly want www.kde.org to maintain itsself right?

13:41: <Nightrose> and then you need to get a chekcout

13:42: <Nightrose> with a CMS this would be _a lot_ easier

13:42: <Jucato> Nightrose: you can request it :)

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13:42: <Socceroos_home> mostly dynamic content with a little static

13:42: <Nightrose> i know

13:42: <Jucato> or tell me so I can make use of my bits :)

13:42: <Nightrose> but the issues were always minor

13:42: <Nightrose> so i didn't bother

13:42: <Nightrose> i have other stuff to do

13:42: <Jucato> hehe :P

13:42: <Nightrose> if it was just opening a website and editing it i would have done it

13:42: <Mek> with a cms you still will have to request access...

13:43: <Nightrose> Mek: true - but all the other obstacles are gone

13:43: <Socceroos_home> Nightrose: +1

13:43: <Nightrose> and I don't need an svn account and then on top of that the commit bit

13:43: <cornelius> Nightrose: some people just send this minor issues to the www mailing list, and most often there is somebody who commits them.

13:43: <Nightrose> cornelius: i know

13:43: <Nightrose> <- is lacy :P

13:43: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: isn't that proof that less people are willing to do it that way?

13:44: <annew> most people are busy with other things, so it needs to be simple

13:44: <Socceroos_home> I recon if we can make it as accessible as possible then it will make maintaining it a whole lot easier.

13:44: <Nightrose> right

13:44: <Socceroos_home> annew: +1

13:44: <frankkarlitschek> i agree that it is easier for "editors" to maintain static webpages with a cms

13:44: <cornelius> I just want to remind you that some of the worst maintained subsites are actually running a CMS.

13:44: <Jucato> hm.. ok... would this be a valid reason to switch even www.kde.org to CMS? "to make it easy to extend the site's features and functionality, without having to go through a lot of coding"

13:44: <frankkarlitschek> but i don'tlike the idea of hundreds of static pages on *.kde.org

13:44: <cornelius> It's not a silver bullet.

13:45: <Nightrose> amarok.kde.org <- well maintained and using a cms ;-)

13:45: <irina_r> there's also the psychological barrier, I might want to fix typos and stuff but don't want to have something that feels like a full developer's account to do that

13:45: <Nightrose> but agreed - it is not a pink poy

13:45: <Nightrose> * pony

13:45: <annew> irina_r: +1

13:45: <irina_r> quite apart from whether it's a lot of work

13:45: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: what would be the alternative then?

13:45: <Jucato> pink boy.. hm.

13:45: <Nightrose> :P

13:45: <cornelius> Nightrose: yes, and that's because the Amarok community has a clear idea what they want to put on their site.

13:45: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: +1

13:45: <Nightrose> true

13:45: <frankkarlitschek> can't we discuss what we want on www.kde.org first. and discuss the right tool for the task later?

13:46: <ruphy> do we simply want to use git so you don't need push access to the central repo? :-P

13:46: <Jucato> frankkarlitschek: that was my point #1 :)

13:46: <Nightrose> ruphy: git is even worse - sorry ;-)

13:46: <Jucato> ruphy: this is not a git vs hg vs svn debate!!! :)

13:46: <Nightrose> hehe

13:46: <annew> I'd like to hear frankkarlitschek's ideas of how we can get dynamic content working

13:46: <Socceroos_home> OK - so we need to nut out what we want on www.kde.org *first*

13:47: <Nightrose> anyway_ the point is: a lot more people are willing to learn how to use a CMS than SVN

13:47: <Nightrose> imho

13:47: <Socceroos_home> nightrose: can't argue with that

13:47: <ruphy> Nightrose: not if it has a cool webinterface for it, that allows editing files on the web, like a wiki :P

13:47: <frankkarlitschek> i think kde a a huge great work wide community. but kde.org looks like the website of an old and boring  company

13:47: <Socceroos_home> wiki front page? thats more static than ever.

13:47: <ruphy> eheheh

13:47: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek++

13:47: <Nightrose> ruphy: hehe ok true

13:48: <Jucato> so let's whip the artists to create a refreshing cover! :)

13:48: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos: announcments and synicated stuff from the Dot right on top, user and developer blogs, maybe an ajax powered commit log so it updates, that's kind of technical but it would be cool

13:48: <frankkarlitschek> why not show our users and our developers, blog posts, new applications, knowledgebase, fotos, .. on kde.org

13:48: <Jucato> (actually the front page looks more CMS than anything...)

13:48: <Jucato> and more icons!

13:48: <irina_r> yes, it does!

13:49: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: +1

13:49: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: +1

13:49: <Jucato> (seriously.. aside from the "Don't Look Back".. even techbase looks more "dyanmic"...)

13:49: <Nightrose> imho the entry page should be simple and have a wow effect

13:49: <annew> frankkarlitschek: tell us more about how it works

13:49: <Nightrose> not putting everything there we have is the key

13:49: <irina_r> look inviting, make people want to follow links

13:49: <Nightrose> i like frankkarlitschek's idea though - just don't overdo it

13:49: <troubalex> frankkarlitschek: that's why I was looking into this noserub thingie.

13:50: <frankkarlitschek> Nightrose: true. but we can impress with our community. not with a website design :-)

13:50: <Jucato> I think what frankkarlitschek is getting at is what is usually called a "portal" :)

13:50: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: we can do both ;-)

13:50: <Jucato> frankkarlitschek: that's still an important part of the impression :)

13:50: <annew> Jucato: most portals are horrible

13:50: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: let me get you an example

13:50: <Jucato> for some, it may actually be the first impression of the community they will get

13:50: <Jucato> annew: well... :)

13:51: <annew> Jucato: well the ones I've seen are :-)

13:51: <Nightrose>  http://www.opensuse.org/en/  <- i think this is extremely well done for a starting page

13:51: <Melchiorre> _CitizenKane_: ajaxx powered updating is pretty easy - I can set that up without much pain.

13:51: <BernhardRode> irina_r: ... + make them come back

13:51: <Nightrose> add a touch of community and voila

13:51: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: ^

13:51: <irina_r> annew: agree completely, I hate standard portal sited

13:51: <irina_r> sites

13:51: <Jucato> Nightrose: wow that's new! I like it :)

13:51: <Nightrose> :)

13:51: <Jucato> much better than the previous one

13:51: <Nightrose> jep

13:51: <annew> I hate it

13:51: * Jucato drools

13:51: <_CitizenKane_> Melchiorre: ya, just a little bit of JS fanciness, spice it up a bit

13:51: <Nightrose> hehe

13:51: <ruphy> Nightrose: I support that

13:51: <_CitizenKane_> nothing too overwhelming

13:51: <Jucato> annew: the site, not the distro :P

13:52: <frankkarlitschek> Nightrose: the opensuse site has a great design. but where are our users? where are our developers? tips and tricks

13:52: <annew> yup

13:52: <Nightrose> :P

13:52: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: that is the point - add a little community to it

13:52: <irina_r> takes ages to load but that may just be my connection

13:52: <Nightrose> just don't overdo it

13:52: <ruphy> Nightrose: kde.org should be *homepage*, simple and slick. with links to the *.kde.org umbrella, but not directly on the first page

13:52: <Nightrose> *nod*

13:52: <Jucato> like what it is now? lots and lots and lots of links at the side :)

13:53: <irina_r> ah, opensuse is here

13:53: <irina_r> horrible font for headings!

13:53: <_CitizenKane_> Jucato: well hopefully not ;)

13:53: <Nightrose> irina_r: hehe that is details - i was just talking about the conzept

13:54: <Nightrose> and i know aseigo likes it a lot as well

13:54: <Jucato> ok we moved from "what content" to "what design" :)

13:54: <annew> Nightrose: content or not, anything so ugly turns me off

13:54: <Melchiorre> irina_r: agree about the headings, but at least they're different :)

13:54: <Jucato> (sorry, I like it.. :P)

13:54: <Socceroos_home> I think frank has a good point. We need to show how vibrant our community is - it needs to be exciting and inviting. Inviting also means a nice look

13:54: <Jucato> well not the fonts

13:54: <irina_r> I don't hate it but would do it differnently

13:54: <ruphy> design!

13:54: <ruphy> design!

13:54: <ruphy> yeah

13:54: <Nightrose> annew: i am sure the oxygen team can make it look a lot more beautiful

13:54: <ruphy> :D

13:54: <irina_r> (can't say how though)

13:54: <cornelius> I think the great thing about the opensuse page is that it gives a clear entry point for the different target audiences.

13:54: <Jucato> Nightrose: they better!!

13:54: <BernhardRode> i think the dojo community does a great job in connecting users - techies - daus

13:54: <BernhardRode> http://dojotoolkit.org/

13:54: <ruphy> that 'yeah' is actually a quassel bug

13:55: * ruphy is happy to show to the world his spammer skills :P

13:55: <Nightrose> *g*

13:55: <irina_r> you have bugs that actually say something sensible?

13:55: <ruphy> hmmm

13:55: <Jucato> cornelius: it immediately shows what the user would want to know or to go to

13:55: <ruphy> eyeos

13:55: <ruphy> that's a good site

13:55: <BernhardRode> the homepage has a clear structure and new content from different sources

13:56: <ruphy> http://eyeos.org/en/

13:56: <irina_r> cornelius: yes, it does

13:56: <_CitizenKane_> BernhardRode: +1 on that, looks like a good model to follow

13:56: <Jucato> ruphy: would be better if they used oxygen icons :)

13:56: <ruphy> can be made better, but...

13:56: <ruphy> Jucato: actually - they do

13:56: <ruphy> a slightly modified oxygen

13:56: <Jucato> right :)

13:57: <Jucato> wow I think first non-KDE site using oxygen :)

13:57: <Jucato> (ha! take that tango!!)

13:57: <ruphy> (and they also told us that they were sending us the modified SVGs, which they never did... )

13:57: <Jucato> first I saw

13:57: <Jucato> anyway...

13:57: <Socceroos_home> ok

13:57: <annew> so where does this get us?

13:58: <Jucato> it gets us sidetracked :)

13:58: <annew> what do we want to see on our front page?

13:58: <Socceroos_home> so, we want to marry the community to the main kde.org website and show it in all its glory, but remember to not overwhelm the visitor with information

13:58: <Socceroos_home> 1) news

13:58: <ruphy> wait - what's the target audience for www.kde.org. did we define that?

13:58: <Jucato> well, my suggestion is that the top of the page should be the most eye-catching and have the most essential information about KDE

13:58: <ruphy> random enthusiast, business?

13:59: <Jucato> I forgot what it's called in journalism/newspapers...

13:59: <Melchiorre> ruphy: IMHO all of the above

13:59: <ruphy> non-floss user looking for "what the heck is KDE?"

13:59: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: everyone who would use KDE, it would be a landing page

13:59: <Socceroos_home> ruphy: landing pad for all targets......kind of like dojo site?

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13:59: <Melchiorre> more like the opensuse site

13:59: <Jucato> everyone who would use and uses KDE.... it's a "home" page :)

13:59: <annew> sorry folks - the majority of 'users' never get to the kde pages

13:59: <Melchiorre> something for everyone :)

14:00: <Melchiorre> annew: is that because they're so outdated that no one bothers?

14:00: <Jucato> annew: hopefully this will get them drooling for it :)

14:00: <Socceroos_home> annew: i think its current state and purpose may have something to do with that

14:00: <Nightrose> annew: they are still target audience

14:00: <cornelius> annew: that's true, but they also don't get to other pages. And the majority of visitors of www.kde.org are users.

14:00: <mdik> sebas mentioned that discover.kde.org was meant for the average new user

14:00: <annew> I don't really think that it's a content issue -

14:01: <Jucato> and Konqueror now defaults to www.kde.org when you click on the Home button  in the toolbar

14:01: <ruphy> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/

14:01: <annew> a marketing issue, perhaps?

14:01: <ruphy> that's another very good website

14:01: <Jucato> annew: it's all issues

14:01: <Jucato> content, design, marketing

14:01: <Nightrose> annew: some of them never *need* to

14:01: <annew> the first place they look is distro-related

14:01: <Nightrose> but those who need it should find what they want

14:01: <irina_r> Jucato: hey, I didn't know that! (but then I hardly ever click on the Home button)

14:01: <Socceroos_home> these sites are using cms's :P

14:01: <ruphy> cornelius: ok, users. but they want to do WHAT?

14:01: <ruphy> what are they looking for?

14:01: <ruphy> links to download KDE?

14:01: <Jucato> irina_r: I discovered it by mistake

14:01: <annew> and the distro MLs/forums don't point them to kde.org

14:01: <Jucato> oh stop that Socceroos_home! :)

14:01: <ruphy> documents like the CoC?

14:02: <ruphy> buttons?

14:02: <ruphy> (buttons -->  merchandise, icons...)

14:02: <cornelius> I don't think we can define a specific target audience for www.kde.org. That's our central page. Google goes there. Everybody goes there.

14:02: <Jucato> annew: that distro's do that is actually not our fault, is it? and there is little we can do directly to change that

14:02: <irina_r> documentation, howtos

14:02: <ruphy> they want to discover "what is kde"?

14:02: <irina_r> howtos

14:02: <Jucato> annew: that doesn't mean we have to care less about that front page

14:02: <annew> Jucato: we have to - we have to sell it to them

14:03: <cornelius> the job of the page is to direct visitors to the pages for more specfic audiences.

14:03: <Jucato> exactly!!

14:03: <irina_r> the About KDE section is a very mixed bag.

14:03: <ruphy> cornelius: do we have some data of the kde.org usage and direction of the traffic?

14:03: <Jucato> and making it alive is part of that :)

14:03: <annew> alive, yes, but

14:03: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: I think this may be going on a completely subject, and would be good for another meeting

14:03: <Nightrose> ruphy: yes - ask dirk or sebas

14:03: <ruphy> Nightrose: ok, thanks

14:03: <annew> I'm with ruphy about defining why people come there in the first place

14:03: <Jucato> and we're only on #2 iirc? :)

14:04: <_CitizenKane_> it sounds like the consensus is that it should be redesigned somehow ;)

14:04: <pinheiro> m2

14:04: <ruphy> we need to define "what the user is looking for when gets on our homepage" before designing what would be the most prominent links

14:04: <Jucato> well I agree with cornelius and frankkarlitschek : <cornelius>  the job of the page is to direct visitors to the pages for more specfic audiences.

14:04: <pinheiro> yes

14:04: <ruphy> Jucato: sure, that doesn't mean much anyways ;-)

14:04: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: agreed

14:04: <ruphy> I think we all agree on that

14:04: <pinheiro> exactly

14:04: <ruphy> the point is

14:04: <Jucato> where?

14:04: <cornelius> we define who we want to attract to which site. and www.kde.org should be the central hub.

14:04: <Jucato> :)

14:05: <ruphy> what *are* the areas that are most interesting

14:05: <Jucato> where to I mean

14:05: <ruphy> the areas that are mostly looked for

14:05: <Nightrose> ruphy: what is kde/where can i get it/why is it cool

14:05: <Nightrose> not necessarily in that order

14:05: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: we'll figure that out, and then we can do the site design based on this

14:06: <Jucato> well, imho users would be looking for: 1. What is KDE? 2. Where/How do I get it? 3. Latest News 4. Where to go now?

14:06: <Nightrose> ruphy: and then news and other stuff

14:06: <ruphy> Nightrose: cool, that gives us a great starting point

14:06: <Jucato> with "Where to go now?" branching off to more places

14:06: <ruphy> so I'd say

14:06: <ruphy> in a cronological order

14:06: <annew> Jucato: most users get it only from their distro

14:06: <irina_r> wouldn't it attract lots of people who already use KDE

14:06: <ruphy> "What is KDE", "Take a tour", "How to get it"

14:06: <irina_r> and want more information?

14:06: <ruphy> those are the most prominent buttons

14:06: <ruphy> with some text below it

14:06: <Jucato> annew: sure. we should point that out too

14:07: <irina_r> "how to get it" is hardly relevant when you already have it and it pointed you to the site.

14:07: <Nightrose> irina_r: yes but they can scroll a little

14:07: <Jucato> annew: but some curious non-KDE users wouldn't know immediately

14:07: <Nightrose> we need to sell to first timers first

14:07: <ruphy> the 2-sentences phrase that describes really briefly what is KDE

14:07: <ruphy> then

14:07: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: well, we also have relevant things for users to connect to other users

14:07: <ruphy> below that

14:07: <Jucato> irina_r: have you done IRC support a lot lately? :

14:07: <irina_r> yes, true

14:07: <annew> Nightrose: I don't

14:07: <Socceroos_home> So far, we're describing the kind of user that has come to KDE.org to learn

14:07: <Nightrose> annew: ?

14:07: <Jucato> I stil get a lot of "how do I install KDE" in #kde and #kubuntu :)

14:07: <irina_r> no, only been supported :-)

14:07: <Socceroos_home> interact, share, help, learn and play?

14:08: <annew> Nightrose: I don't agree - word of mouth, from existing users, sells best

14:08: <ruphy> we have all the other links... below it. including one that lists all the kde.org umbrella

14:08: <annew> sorry - fingers in a twist again

14:08: <ruphy> how does that sound?

14:08: <Jucato> annew: we cannot presume that that is the only way people will hear about or get KDE

14:08: <Nightrose> annew: true but the websites most prominent point at the top should be the ones i mentioned

14:08: <BernhardRode> ruphy: +1

14:08: <Jucato> I for one didn't try out KDE until I well researched it

14:08: <Nightrose> annew: that doesn't make word-of-mouth any less importnat

14:08: <Socceroos_home> Ruphy: that is a solid idea

14:09: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: sounds good initially, I think it should be a topic for another meeting

14:09: <annew> probably the biggest IT sell this year was 'easy to learn, easy to use, easy to play' or whatever it was

14:09: <Socceroos_home> is it all static though?

14:09: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: CMS? :P

14:09: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: sounds like a bit of a mix, I can start sketching some stuff out

14:09: <Socceroos_home> YEAH YEAG< CMS CMS!!!!!111one

14:09: <Jucato> heheeh

14:09: <irina_r> :-P

14:09: <_CitizenKane_> lol

14:09: <Socceroos_home> lol

14:09: <Jucato> lol

14:09: <annew> I can see how you can make it prettier, but I'm still not seeing how this is less static

14:10: <irina_r> not only prettier, but more inviting without making it portally.

14:10: <Jucato> annew: where not yet talking about static vs. dynamic content

14:10: <annew> sorry to seem obtuse, but it's not getting me there

14:10: <Jucato> Socceroos_home just wanted to put that in :)

14:10: <annew> so what do we want to see?  I still dont know

14:10: <Jucato> we're talking about *what* should be there first

14:10: <Socceroos_home> ruphy's suggestion is a good one, and it caters well for the 'learn' user, but should we try and cater for interact, share, help, learn and play.

14:11: <mdik> one question: how static is drupal? cant you make a info-box with the latest dot-news like we got it?

14:11: <Melchiorre> How about we discuss this in another meeting, and try to finish off the rest of this one's agenda.  I'll need to head off soonish :)

14:11: <ruphy> Socceroos: ok, but that's a h3, to say it html-ly

14:11: <irina_r> Melchiorre: good idea

14:11: <irina_r> can we do this every Friday? :-)

14:12: <ruphy> we can put less prominent links with "get involved" "get help" and the others

14:12: <ruphy> Melchiorre: :D

14:12: <Mek> mdik: drupal is as flexible as you want it to be

14:12: <Melchiorre> mdik: Drupal allows you to do just about anything - just depends how much time you spend on it.  You could write a module to do that, or also include php code in the page.

14:12: <Jucato> ruphy: don't forget to make room for news, blogs, etc

14:12: <Jucato> Melchiorre: even shoot your foot I bet :)

14:12: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: at the top we should cater to "learn" and then interact a little lower at the top

14:12: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: the first look is most important for new users

14:12: <Nightrose> we need to get them in the first 5 sec

14:12: <Nightrose> or they might be lost

14:12: <Nightrose> and just go to another page

14:12: <Nightrose> the ones who already know kde will stay longer than that

14:12: <ruphy> Jucato: that's not going on the frontpage, maybe just a link... KISS!

14:13: <Melchiorre> Jucato: for sure :)

14:13: <mdik> Me*: well, then its fine isnt it?

14:13: <ruphy> but yeah, I'll hide again, so we can get back on the real topic ;-)

14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: um. I thought we wanted that in the front page :)

14:13: <Socceroos_home> So, are we agreed that the landing page needs to cater mainly for the new user?

14:13: <_CitizenKane_> OK, so onto number 4, community management

14:13: <Jucato> (part of the "including the community")

14:13: <Socceroos_home> with community sprinkled in?

14:13: <frankkarlitschek> this discussion reminds of all the other kde-www discussions in the last 7 years. discussion about cms and design. any suggestions how we get something done in the next few weeks?

14:13: <BernhardRode> Socceroos_home: +1

14:13: <irina_r> Socceroos_home: and to the experienced user who doesn't have a particular destination

14:14: <irina_r> or wants somehting different than usual

14:14: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: we can start contacting app maintainers to get old pages decomissioned

14:14: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: in the next two weeks the plan is to have jobs assigned and to get moving, yete

14:14: <Socceroos_home> yete = yes

14:14: <frankkarlitschek> Socceroos_home: sounds good

14:14: <ruphy> Jucato: usually, who cares about news is not the occasional visitor which we should get, but is the abitual visitor, who probably has already dot.k.o bookmarked. or knows what he's looking for and where to find it.

14:13: <ruphy> Jucato: we should certainly put it, but not too much prominent

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14:13: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: at the moment, its a bit of a process to actually define those jobs :)

14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: hm.. I never said it had to be prominent

14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: I meant "make room in your design" :)

14:13: <ruphy> ok :-)

14:13: <ruphy> then we agree =)

14:13: <Jucato> doesn't necessarily at the top :P

14:13: <Melchiorre> _CitizenKane_: I'm not sure we should be contacting people until we know what their options are.  Its going to be much easier for us if we contact them saying "We're doing changing the site like this: what do you want us to do with your content" rather than saying "we don't really know what we're doing, what do you want to do?"

14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: I'm not yet that insane. so yes we agree :)

14:16: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: i completely disagree. news, blogs user and developer pictures, aplications should be on the homepage. we don't want a boring corporate site

14:16: <frankkarlitschek> kde is a opensource community not a company

14:16: <irina_r> Melchiorre: agree about that, we have to be able to tell them what we're doing

14:16: <Jucato> frankkarlitschek: what he meant was that it shouldn't exactly be the first or biggest thing that the user sees...

14:16: <_CitizenKane_> Melchiorre: well, for the apps we know what we're going to do, it's pretty much going on to userbase or techbase

14:17: <Jucato> Melchiorre, irina_r: but I think it would be best that we actually gave them a heads up first and to ask if they will be updating their sites

14:17: <irina_r> and people might like to remove their own obsolete content first before migrating it

14:17: <BernhardRode> then why do't we learn proven Web 2.0 Community principals *sorryforthebuzzwordbingo*

14:17: <irina_r> or they'll be shaken up and think: oh, yes, I've got that, I'll do something

14:17: <Melchiorre> Jucato: _CitizenKane_: Ok, if we've decided to go with userbase and techbase that thats cool :)

14:18: <BernhardRode> @frankkarlitschek

14:18: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: sure, but www.k.o is not meant to be strictly for the community. it's meant more for the user not yet in the community, so journalists, newbies, and buisnesses

14:18: <ruphy> it's the starting place

14:19: <frankkarlitschek> even companies have news on the homepage. and we should show even more who we are

14:19: <Socceroos_home> but as the starting place, should it be for the community or for the unconverted?

14:19: <Nightrose> ruphy: frankkarlitschek's point is that community is one of our biggest selling points and we should show it

14:19: <mdik> ruphy: i heard that kde.org is NOT for the newbie, but buisness, journalists etc

14:20: <ruphy> once one knows the mechanisms, he can "tolerate" the additional clutter, and he knows what to filter, and how to do what he wants. the user that comes on kde.org doesn't know much about KDE, and it should be its landing point. he doesn't care much about what the developers blogged, or if KFoo just released 0.3.5-beta, imo.

14:20: <Nightrose> mdik: no matter what we want newbies will go there and we should show them what kde is

14:21: <BernhardRode> ruphy: +1

14:21: <ruphy> mdik: i think newbie is in the same category here.

14:21: <ruphy> "let's see if KDE is any interesting"

14:21: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: but it helps give the feeling if being big and meaningful

14:21: <_CitizenKane_> of being big and meaningful

14:21: <Nightrose> and it shows that there are actuyll people working on this

14:21: <Nightrose> and it is not anonymous

14:22: <Nightrose> *actually

14:22: <ruphy> news is certainly important, it shouldn't be too much important on the frontpage though

14:22: <Socceroos_home> OK guys, we don't have to stop talking now. but If we could officially wrap things up for this meeting. Going on to talk about open collaboration now would keep me here all night.

14:22: <frankkarlitschek> Nightrose: and it shows the users that they can become a part of it

14:22: <Nightrose> jep

14:23: <Socceroos_home> Topics we have resolved?

14:23: <mdik> Nightrose, ruphy: im on your side. just wanted to state what other vipeople told me... :]

14:23: <_CitizenKane_> We have decided to try and move as many app pages to userbase and techbase

14:23: <Nightrose> mdik: and those people could still be send to the other sites with the "what is kde" button

14:23: <Nightrose> ;-)

14:23: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: yep

14:23: <_CitizenKane_> We will be contacting app maintainers in the coming weeks to get the ball rolling

14:24: <_CitizenKane_> A strict licensing policy needs to be created for kde website content

14:24: <Socceroos_home> Yep, we will need to compile a more complete list of who we need to contact

14:24: <annew> _CitizenKane_: if there was content newer than about 18 months it has been migrated to userbase although still on w.k.o.

14:24: <_CitizenKane_> annew: ok

14:25: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: absolutely, that comes later though. the first thing they should see when they land on kde.org, is something straight to the point, that gives them immediate satisfaction, and gives *then* the possibility to explore more. most people close the browser window after less than one minute, the first seconds is a crucial time where we have to win them and guide them into discovering what KDE is.

14:25: <_CitizenKane_> And finally, the KDE web sphere needs to become better organized, easier to navigate for the various contingencies

14:25: <pinheiro> ruphy: ++++

14:25: <ruphy> pinheiro: :-)

14:26: <Melchiorre> ruphy: I agree too :)

14:26: <_CitizenKane_> I suppose there will be a kde.org redesign will happen too, but that's going to need fleshing out first

14:27: <Socceroos_home> yep

14:27: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: the questions is if you can get a wow effect with a big and pretty marketing picture or with content

14:27 -!- toscalix [n=toscalix@62-87-44-100.red-acceso.airtel.net] has joined #kde-www

14:27: <Melchiorre> go the picture

14:27: <irina_r> er, a bit of both? get attention with big & pretty, keep attention with content

14:28: <neverendingo> though not official till sebas makes the announcement, may i say that there is a new family member online: forum.kde.org

14:28: <_CitizenKane_> Alright, well Socceroos_home and I will be blogging about this, organizing some additional meetings and getting the ball rolling on these efforts

14:29: <Melchiorre> neverendingo: nice!

14:29: <Socceroos_home> There is obviously a lot to discuss guys, some issues are also more important that I first envisioned. We didn't get through our plan, but we have at least got a solid start.

14:29: <OhReally> neverendingo: thanks!

14:29: <neverendingo> it's a forum!! ;)

14:29: <_CitizenKane_> neverendingo: cool

14:29: * irina_r is not a big fan of forums but it looks okay and I'll register

14:29: <Socceroos_home> as _CitizenKane_ says, we need to organise another meeting - with a lot more specific topic. THere was too much to talk about this time round :)

14:30: <frankkarlitschek> the site can be pretty and nice. but in the content are we should show our content. for example the newest applications. this is more interesting for the users than a big marketing picture. like for example on gnome.org

14:30: <irina_r> still getting our feet wet

14:30: <frankkarlitschek> content area

14:31: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: pictures or other visual tricks, and very tailored and marketing content

14:31: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: we'll have to talk more about open collaboration services, I'm really interested in implementing it

14:31: <ruphy> there's no other way

14:31: <ruphy> you can't fill it with a lot of text

14:31: <ruphy> at all

14:31: <ruphy> look at all the modern websites

14:31: <ruphy> they have the smaller text possible

14:31: <annew> ruphy: more and more are unreadable to me

14:32: <annew> just too tiny

14:32: <irina_r> me too

14:32: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: this doesn't have to be text. could be screenshots or developer or user pictures too

14:32: <annew> and poor colour contrast

14:32: <annew> pale grey text

14:32: <annew> or text on dark colours

14:32: <irina_r> the first thing people do with css always seems to be to make text unreadable

14:32: <annew> but I'm sure you know that

14:32: <ruphy> the user is then presented with text if he wants to read it

14:32: <ruphy> annew: yeah :-)

14:33: <annew> you'd be surprised how many ML users are over 70

14:33: <annew> and that often means failing sight

14:33: <ruphy> !

14:33: <ruphy> I wouldn't know

14:33: <annew> :-)

14:33: <ruphy> err

14:33: <irina_r> I'm only middle-aged but still bothered by tiny text

14:33: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: kde isn't a software vendor who has a product and users can buy and use it. we have to show the users that they are a part of it.

14:33: <ruphy> I mean, this surprises me :-

14:33: <ruphy> :-)

14:33: <ruphy> but yeah

14:34: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: yes - later

14:34: <ruphy> =)

14:34: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: later is too late

14:34: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: the first time that a user arrives there is not going to contribute

14:34: <ruphy> they should be at least told what it is

14:34: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: but we have to show that he could.

14:34: <ruphy> we could make a little visual tour

14:34: <irina_r> nice!

14:34: <ruphy> like the chrome comic (but shorter and better), to give an example

14:35: <ruphy> so that the user clicks and fascinatingly discovers KDE

14:35: <annma> yes but that needs people to do so

14:35: <ruphy> and the last one is something like...

14:35: <BernhardRode> so the user should be catched ->  why not try to open a social website... if you get the user to register his visit won't be a one timer

14:35: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: no. we are not a software vendor :-)

14:35: <ruphy> "And you can be part of this - too!"

14:35: <ruphy> and a little explanation

14:35: <annma> ideas on what to do are easy, people to do them are more difficult

14:36: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: we are, for the target audience who will just look at the most important links

14:36: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: for those who care more, they will look at the other parts and find that out too

14:37: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: it is afailure to think that we make kde and the rest of the world consume it. if we want to grow big. we have to integrate our userbase. transform users into fans into ambasadors, contributors, developers, ..

14:37: <ruphy> first the user need to get to know what is KDE and why it is so cool, and *then* we can trick^H^H^Hget him into contributing

14:38: <ruphy> they need to have the motivation, we can't put on our website as main text "please! contribute with us!!!"

14:38: <ruphy> that's, first of all, completely unprofessional

14:38: <annma> hmmm

14:38: <ruphy> and then, new users won't be even tempted by try us

14:38: <annma> we are not professional ruphy

14:38: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: on the homepage we have to show our usp. and our usp is not a big marketing picture.

14:38: <mdik> frankkarlitschek: yes, but only the ones who really want it. if you push it too hard, youll create a gigantic bubble of stuff you dot wanna to have

14:39: <ruphy> contributors *need* to be motivated

14:39: <ruphy> we should clearly state that it's a possibility

14:39: <ruphy> we should make it easy for those who want to join us

14:39: <ruphy> but that's it

14:39: <annma> well it's not the time to discuss content when we barely find people to do release announcements

14:39: <irina_r> that means that you have to attract the motivated people, not try to motivate the unmotivated people

14:39: <frankkarlitschek> mdik: nobody is pushing to hard. but the homepage should show who we are. our USP. this is the most important think

14:39: <mdik> yeah, tell teh people how it works, but dont push tehm into contributing...

14:39: <ruphy> the user first gets the content, then gets to help

14:39: <_CitizenKane_> Alright, well I need to get some sleep, we will continue things at a later date

14:39: <_CitizenKane_> thanks everyone for coming